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deuce4
Feb 12, 2005, 7:01 PM
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another story interlude:
How about the Rockhouse in Springdale? No better climber's institution existed save possibly for Camp 4 in my climbing experience. The Rock House was built in the days of the CCC, during the time when unemployed depression workers built the great trails of Zion: Angel's Landing, the Watchman trail, Observation Point. The same incredible craftsmanship and fine stonework of these trails was used to build some unique homes in Springdale, the Rock House being one of them. It was occupied by the principal residents, Brad Quinn and Darren Cope. Darren's uncle who owned it at the time. It was a meeting place for climbers from all over the world, the grassy front lawn being the best place imaginable to rack up for a route, with onlookers and kabitzers on the deck looking over and drinking beer. There we could explain such things as the intracasies of hooking as we displayed our mighty hook racks to the admiring crowd.
The treehouse Brad had built on the side of the house was the most awesome part of it: about 30 feet off the ground, a double decker, and requiring 5.7 climbing to get into it, it was the perfect place to look out over the cliffs smoking and drinking, before and after a Zion ascent. A great place to sleep, too, especially on the lower waterproofed room during a crisp Zion rainstorm.
The back yard was the killer spot for Dutch Oven cookouts, delicious dishes and deserts baking in pits and cooked by the finest mesquite coals. We always followed the local tradition of, when opening a bottle of scotch or whiskey, immediately crushing the cap beneath our feet. Tales would be told, and bold plans, forgotten by morning, would be made.
Sometimes things would get out of hand: Big parties upset the nearby trailer park residents, and generally Darren would have to take the heat and try to calm the energy down. Just before the demise of the Rock House (sold to a quiet family whose first act was to cut down that magnificent tree which housed the treehouse), the Rock House got a bad rap for corrupting the local underaged gals who had discovered our palace of sin. This was also in the days of Springdale where you could buy property for less than a few million and creative folks like Mark Austin were making a killing on real estate development. Those were the days.
Hanging out with Brad and Darren was a treat. Generally you could just show up and throw down a sleeping bag on their floor or the treehouse. Although a spectacular climber, Brad was hard to get out on the crags, preferring instead to pursue his craft of stonework and building projects. He was, maybe still is, a tough one to corrupt into blowing off work and going climbing, but watching him fire up the typical "Zion 5.10" (the max given rating at the time for many of us) was watching a powerhouse. If Brad or Darren weren't available, it was only a matter of time before another climber on a roadtrip would show up for an adventure. One of my favorite series of moments there was watching the progess of Darren, a hard worker in the building trade, who didn't really climb a lot, but must have been occasionally inspired to get out on the rocks from all the climbers who stayed at his house. Darren would often sit with us on the porch of The Rock House and look out to the awesome head-on view of the West Temple. Generations of Cope's had lived in Springdale, and one of Darren's relatives, way back when, had done the first ascent of the West Temple via the 4th class hiking route up the ridge, and he woud often tell us stories about it. By and by, Darren dreamed of climbing it up the center of the 2000 foot face. Years went by, but I remember the moment when we were all having a drink on the porch, and the evening light on the West Temple was especially magnificent, and Darren dispelled all the doubt that had been there before about climbing it, and he and Brad made the decision to team up for it. After 3 days on the wall, they made their ascent of "Gittin Western" the local parlance for doing something pretty damn hard.
There must be lots of other stories of that magic climber's hang. It was a sad day when the place was sold, necessitating the use of the crowded campground for Zion basecamps.
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dmckj
Feb 12, 2005, 8:23 PM
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'It's a Small World' interlude......
When I started climbing in Zion less and less (the result of caving in Lechuguilla more and more) the Rock House was just getting up and running. Aside from taking an occasional shower, I recall lusting after one of those soon-to-be-corrupted female youths.
I met Brad and Darren pretty much when they started climbing, and it seems to me, I met them through Stacy Allison who I believe is the one responsible for getting those guys started. In those days Brad was working with Mark and Stacy's construction crews....which leads into the 'small world' story.
In 1980 my friend Josh Lieberman (the one tormented off of Moonlight by Ron) and I decided it was time to go die, er I mean climb in Alaska. Per chance we teamed up with Bill Kitsen and Geoff Radford (both deceased) for an alpine-style ascent of the West Face of Mt. Huntington. Owing to persistent bad weather we, literally, dropped onto the glacier, set up our tent and started up the climb, in Josh's and my case all in the same day. We noted there were another two tents on the glacier, but the occupants were gone. We headed up the route in the teeth of a storm that sent constant spin drift mini-avalanches down the steep fluted snow/ice face we were climbing. Somewhere in the midst of this, out of the swirling greyish white sky, I heard a woman's voice. Once, then again......What the heck? It seemed fairly mystical at the time, and my partners told me I was hallucinating. O.K., maybe so. That night we slept 4 of us in a 2 man snow cave, two on top of two. It snowed so much that night we had to dig ourselves OUT of the snow cave the next morning.
We climbed to the summit ridge, completing the West Face line (ends at ridge) but, being strung out with no bivy gear, food or fuel (we were going for it at this point) and facing a BLACK incoming storm, we bailed from below the last corniced summit block. Good thing we did, because as we completed the second to last of 25 straight full rope rappels a ferocious 9-day storm blew in and pinned us into tents and snow caves for the duration. Elapsed time of ascent-descent, 3.5 days.
After we pulled into camp in the blizzard we made the acquaintance of the folks in the tents. They asked us where we had disappeared to. We told them. They didn't believe us and, in reality, were pissed. They had already been there for about 20 days trying to climb Huntington as well, but had retreated in the weather we started in. One of them was a woman. We sat around and enjoyed hot drinks, getting slowly buried by the intense snowfall.
Years later, I was hanging in the Bit and Spur. Mark Austin and I had become friends and he was with his wife, Stacy, that night. We got to chatting, and she mentioned she had been climbing in Alaska several years prior.
'Oh really, where?' I asked.
'In the Alaska Range' she said
'When was that?'
'1980. We tried a new route up the West Face of Huntington.' she said.
'Wait a minute...I was on the W. Face of Huntington in April of 1980!'
In that moment we looked at each other with the startling realization and said simultaneously 'Oh my god, that was you!?'.
Turns out it was HER voice I had heard in the storm that day!
Stacy and I ended up doing a new route together in the East Temple. I named it 'Uncertain Fates' because she was going through marriage difficulties at the time. It was a great route and we had a perfect two days of climbing.
Instead of the Rock House, I used to hang with Mark and Stacy in their palacial house on the mesa. One of the coolest places I have ever hung out in my life. During one visit I noticed that one of the BIG windows in their bedroom was smashed, pretty thoroughly. I asked Mark what had happened.
'Oh that? Stacy did that. She got pissed and threw the T.V. through the window.' Mark said matter-of-factly.
Didn't surprise me. She was/is a very tough (and sweet) lady. She went on to become the first U.S. woman to climb Everest.
That didn't surprise me either!
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bsmoot
Feb 12, 2005, 11:03 PM
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John:
Great tales! Thanks. Two of my old climbing buddies have climbed the Becky route on the N.W. face of the Great White Throne. Jim Dockery climbed it around 76' (remember Jim did the Shady Lady route on Mt Hooker?) My other friends, Rick Wyatt & Dave Jenkins climbed it the next year. After 1 attempt, they decided to try it in a day...ambious plans for a grade 6.
They packed super light, free climbing a lot and running it out. In that lower deep, sparsly protected chimney, Rick got way above his protection, so he moved into where it narrowed to a squeeze. Thrashing around, he soon found that his helmet was stuck. unable to move it, he unbuckled it & climbed past it. Finally, he was able to kick it loose. Higher up, they made good time to Last Chance Ledge. (Jim built a fire here on his ascent) With some daylight left, they ascended the crux aid pitch off the ledge. Some of the old Beckey bolts were sticking way out on the highly modeled, soft rock. Cleaning, some pins didn't require a hammer. At sunset they reached the summit, thus completeing, to my knowledge, the first one day ascent of a grade 6 in Zion...1977.
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dangle
Feb 13, 2005, 12:23 AM
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Just under 20 years ago at a party Brad's mom Kathy approached me saying her teenage son wanted to start climbing and would I teach him some safety techniques.
We went to Snow Canyon and did some climbs during which I mentioned my back problems. Brad suggested I visit a chiropracter by the name of Tebbs which I did with no result.
Six weeks later was my Valley of Fire bust and with all the abuse my back went out on me. Later when I sued the State of Nevada in Federal Court for violating my civil rights we had a secret weapon.
The Tebbs bill.
The state's attorney had claimed that I had only pretended to have back problems but after seeing the bill the judge became very sympathetic. We won the case and the state didn't bother to appeal.
On 9/29/88 an old man ran a stop sign in Hurricane. Not long after I got my first ambulance ride to the hospital. My spine was fractured (T12). Later that day pumped full of drugs laying in a hospital bed I got a call from Brad. We had had plans to get together the next day and climb. I told him my back was broken.
"Does that mean we're not going to go climbing?"
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dmckj
Feb 13, 2005, 5:54 AM
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I am all for giving credit where credit is due.
Funny story Dangle!!!!!!
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no_one
Feb 13, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Deuce4 said,
[How about the Rockhouse in Springdale? No better climber's institution existed save possibly for Camp 4]
I've heard a similar statment from a local Zion climber. John, you explained what happened to the "Rock House", but what do you think happened to that "Energy". Where is Zions camp 4 now? Why is it that the energy in "Springdel" has shifted from,... "hey what's up, you guys climbin in the park? Oh yeh! What you got your eye on? Here, wanna hit? Cool brothers, good luck climb safe."..... to the present day feel of..... "well that guy at the Gear Shop sure is cool but where are all the other climbers? How many damn climbing stickers do I need on this piece of shit truck to attract a parnter?.....
You know, if Zion wasn't so magicly delisious, and didn't have the ability to consume a persons thoughts and feelings every time they turn and head east on hwy 9, (even after nearly 6 years of living local, Leeds 3 yrs, Hurricane 3). I would have to say that Springdel Would feel cold in the middle of the summer.
Now, I realize that with a name like several of the repeat offenders on this thread, it's probably not to difficult to get offered a beer in any climbing community, but for us little guys with only a few FA's......... What do you think?
How do you guys do that Quote thing?
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 2:53 PM
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I have often wondered the same thing: Where are all the climbers? I think it's funny that every couple years, someone writes a $hitty magazine article about zion, and they always hype up the "Mean Bean" and the "Bit and Spur" as the "climbers hangs". Well I think they forgot to tell the climbers. Maybe that was true in the 80's/90's, but I spent a LOT of time in Zion this past fall, and I don't think I saw any climbers at the Mean Bean (I admit to giving up on the Bit and Spur long ago).
I kinda like not having a scene. When I go to Yosemite, I avoid C4 at all costs.
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 2:54 PM
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I had to chuckle over two things in the posts regarding the Zion 'spirit' and Camp IV.
First, I always thought of Camp IV as a depressing semi-urban slum, or maybe a refugee camp. Two of my Yosemite stays I hung there, but most of the time preferred the River campgrounds. Sure, there was a spirit, but I actually found that Camp IV often served as a good excuse for folks NOT to climb. If there was a real spirit, it was in the old Yosemite Lodge common area during bad weather. The place would fill up with all of the Camp IV vermin to the point where paying hotel guests were visibly afraid to enter. Pretty funny. Then there were complete A--holes like Tony Yaniro who used to lie prone on the floor blocking people's paths and audibly swearing at tourists if they woke him up.
Meanwhile, for most of my climbing years in Zion there simply weren't ANY other climber to share a spirit with! On the other hand, I had a lot of good times and carry fond memories of the Springdale people. Marcus of the Bit and Spur, several of the Park Rangers, and I fondly recall a communal Thanksgiving we held in the Bit with all the locals. One of the nicest I've had. Lots of good people, you just have to know where and who they are.
Sadly, the Zion campgrounds are the only place to really hang, and I say sadly because they are ridiculously expensive and offer slum-services much like Camp IV. I literally used to drive through the campgrounds twice a day looking for new partners once prior ones had left. Discouraging. Sometimes week would pass before I would see another climber. I ran into Bill Forrest that way, and also Paul Turecki.
The main factor in the lack of a hang place, I suppose, is that people who want to climb in Zion end up living in Springdale, work part-time and thus never go to the campgrounds. They go to the Mean Bean, and that is, actually, an extremely good and gregarious place to hang.
Frankly, I like the Springdale 'upgrade' because at least you can now get decent food, more often than not served by some cute young waitress who says 'Are you REALLY climbers?' as if that actually meant something good. Heck, I'll go for that any day over a cold breakfast in the campground!
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 4:28 PM
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Jones you are a shameless wretch.
The story you tell of Yaniro who has recieved praise from me as a one time partner unlike your other drop deader (with appropriate initials) is actually one that I USED to tell but no longer do. I have outlived its protagonist, NOT YANIRO but another climber.
This particularly rude fellow lay across a threshold and forced a tourist to step over him who excused himself in the process. Responding to the tourist's german accent this climber called him a Nazi. The tourist was obviously infuriated and I was embarassed as hell. I intercepted the tourist outside and apologized assuring him that not all climbers are so rude.
He was still agitated. He rolled up his sleeve and showed me the numbers tattooed on his arm!!!!!!
Jones has heard me tell that story and now retells it so that when I correct him I might appear as a person who encounters antisemitic prejudice everywhere in the climbing community. In truth that is the only other time besides THE DISPLAY OF SWASTIKAS THAT JONES" FRIEND DEFENDED that I can recall such.
Gee Dave is tricky. Did you catch the way he wriggled on the contradiction?
Scott said he met you in 10/83. When was it then? Where is that list of '70s climbs?
This is just another example of Jonesheimer's disorder.
We ALL have selective memories. Every one of us.
Few people have however elevated it to an art form.
Step up to the plate Dave. If you're telling the truth you'll get that check. You'll be a hero to the climbing community earning them a ten grand bonus. It will help you establish (yeah right) the validity of your BS.
I'll even throw in that apology you asked for.
Isn't that EVERYTHING you asked for? The offer is fair enough!
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 5:01 PM
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And he calls ME what? Machiavellian?
Step up to the plate.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Yeah you're right. Should have called him the antagonist.
But then I think many are beginning to figure out who that REALLY is.
C'mon guys. Step up to the plate!
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 5:56 PM
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Wow...fascinating....
I'm sure there is a full chapter on you in the 'DSM-IV'.
Ya see dear reader, everything revolves around Dangle, is about Dangle, is for Dangle, or against Dangle (splitting again). That's pretty much the lifestyle.
How nice of Dangle to 'adopt' my life. I was in Yosemite at the time, and in the Lodge when the incident I report happened. I didn't see it, but someone reported it to me seconds later, and said it was Yaniro (whom there was no mistaking). If not, my apologies to Yaniro.
Now you can see, dear reader, why I long ago stopped talking to Dangle about routes.
However, it is just sooooo... typical of Dangle to take a story to heart that didn't mention him and make it his own while at the same time building himself up (the hero responds) and putting someone else down (the memory-challenged liar adopting one of 'Ron's' priceless tales of selfless integrity.....sort of internally conflicted are we Dangle?). That makes about as much sense as the self-proclaimed rock conservator putting up Crimes Against Nature in the Temple of Sinawava.
My prior comments all stand on their own. I've always had this quaint notion that money had nothing to do with truth, but apparently Dangle can't much handle one and so resorts to the other.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 6:11 PM
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Well he's right about one thing.
I can't handle my money.
Gee what should I do with it next....?
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 6:21 PM
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First he's an a__hole then its just a story you've heard.
Wriggle. Wriggle.
Step up to the plate guys.
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 6:25 PM
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route histories....continued...
Crimes Against Nature
Rating: Not rated because it no longer exists.
F.A.: Dangle and ?
Location: Temple of Sinawava, near Tourist Crack, on one of the most beautifully dark and perfect desert varnished faces you have ever seen.
History: Ask Dangle, who put it up. I heard about this route, I believe, because it was mentioned in a climbing rag. I could not believe that even someone with the propensity to drill such as Dangle would take a Bosch to such a beautiful wall to construct a route consisting of greater than 90% drilled finger pockets up a face with, effectively, almost zero natural holds or features. I was wrong: he did. Mark Austin and I erased the route soon thereafter by backleading the climb and putting sand and epoxy in the holes.
Reason for climb: Apparently, Dangle felt it incumbent upon himself to drill-out a phenomanally gorgeous and pristine desert varnished wall in one of the most sacred spots in a sandstone canyon that I know of.
Kind of makes one wonder who was the guy who drilled out all the other boulders that have been mentioned in this thread......
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 6:39 PM
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Changing the subject are we?
I would be happy to debate the drilled pocket issues. Both those that I DID create and those that have merely been credited to me.
Speaking of things that have been credited to me,
and your CREDIBILITY,
step up to the plate guys.
And Dave, where's that list?
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Oh yeah....
I should add that I too stepped over 'the guy' who was lying on the floor coming into the Yosemite lodge from the parking lot. I thought he was an ass well independent of anything he said to a tourist.
Hey, I like tourists. They tend to be charming, bathed, well-behaved, and, because of the prohibitions against feeding animals, they often take in and feed climbers (I think that is still legal?). Of course, that only encourages the lifestyle, doesn't it????
Coming up, mini-installment....'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?'......
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 6:42 PM
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Great Folks!!
Dangle will now explain the insightful and visionary reasoning he used to justify putting up CRIMES AGAINST NATURE....
can't wait for THAT one!!
I'd like to hear about it move for move...
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deuce4
Feb 14, 2005, 6:53 PM
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As the wise Werner said in a similar thread on Supertopo.com,
"There’s a lot of people who feel that way , then there’s a lot of people who feel the other way. The correct answer is what’s important. It’s there, but hasn’t been given yet on this thread. Who will give it?
Will they say it can’t be done?
Will the wheels keep spinning around and round? "
Having just discovered Supertopo forums and Rockclimbing.com forums.
Supertopo has some cool threads going too. May have to switch over if it gets too brutal over here with the Ron/Dave show. I especially cringe at the racist comments. The Largo/Werner show is going on over there right now...
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 7:05 PM
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Hi John,
Actually, the 'what's important' part has been spelled out at several different points in this thread, from the start of my input. Nothing missing on that score. Deserves a re-read before you make comments like that.
Further, the rock being destroyed (e.g. Crimes, etc) is most definitely important. Not to mention trashing people for 15 years. That's important. Abusing what were friendships. That's important.
If none of that is important, what is?
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2005, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: I kinda like not having a scene. When I go to Yosemite, I avoid C4 at all costs.
Amen!
I go to Yosemite most weekends and C4 about once a year. Even avoiding C4, 'the scene' is hard to escape there. I take vacations to Zion to avoid a scene instead of seek one out. I like that I can get a dinner and drink and no overwhelming scene at the Bit and Spur. Trying to figure out where and what to climb in Zion is part of the fun too. Makes you take a bit more time and thought about what you do before you do it...not always a bad thing.
Thanks for the great stories, everyone.
Were there any other gals putting up routes or of other historical note in Zion besides Stacey Allison and Amanda Tarr?
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I agree with you John. I cringe too. So I'm doing something about it.
Which forum?
And what about "respectively", and Iron Messiah (so as not to split you of course).
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 8:05 PM
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I am the Walrus writes....
In reply to: Were there any other gals putting up routes or of other historical note in Zion besides Stacey Allison and Amanda Tarr?
Good question...
The only other was myself when I dressed up in drag, which wasn't very often since Utah only serves 3.2 beer.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 8:18 PM
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Omigod!
You weren't the....
Never mind.
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jmlangford
Feb 14, 2005, 9:48 PM
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I didn't read everything in this long thread but I will comment on one thing. Anybody that puts a sign in his yard with sawstikas facing the home of a Jewish family is an idiot and won't EVER get any business from me!
Thanks for standing up to jerks like that Ron.
P.S. Keep on standing up for the Second Amendment Ron, for without it, none of the others would exist.
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