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wildbillc
Feb 16, 2005, 5:52 PM
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I keep my adjustable daisey and ladder clipped into the same biner, my question is how to properly bounce test with this set up, my issue is taking a daisey fall. Should I extend the baisey to my lower piece prior to bounce testing, or leave it short? Seems like the safest way would be to use two seperate biners but I don't want the hassel and extra two inches... Any recomdations?
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ryan112ryan
Feb 16, 2005, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: I keep my adjustable daisey and ladder clipped into the same biner, my question is how to properly bounce test with this set up, my issue is taking a daisey fall. Should I extend the baisey to my lower piece prior to bounce testing, or leave it short? Seems like the safest way would be to use two seperate biners but I don't want the hassel and extra two inches... Any recomdations?
taking a fall on a daisy is a real bad idea, because it has no stretch check this out: http://www.southeastclimbing.com/...ical_forces.htm#dead
climbing magazine also had a short article on this :) check out DR. piton's stuff, he describes how to bounce test etc :)
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lambone
Feb 16, 2005, 6:15 PM
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while ryan's statement is true and his intentions in warning you are good, taking a daisy fall is bad, me thinks he has no real experience aid climbing. (based on his profile: TR for a bit, up to 5.7. Ice climb WI 4+ (TR) no Trad experience)
taking a daisy fall when bounce testing your next peice is the risk you take when aid climbing, there are ways to minimize the risk, but no way to avoid it %100.
However, after maybe 10 years of aiding regularly and blowing many pieces while bounce testing, I have never really taken a daisy fall from doing this. I have taken a few daisy falls while not bounce testing, but those were dumb mistakes.
your question is totaly valid. in my opinion it's best to keep your lower daisy "sinched" as much as possible. you want it to be under tension while bouncing the next peice. this is because you want it to help you keep from falling backward if the peice you are bouncing blows out.
basicaly, you should be prepared for that peice to blow, and be ready to catch yourself and prevent a fall if it does. Keep one foot good and seated in your lower aider and keep one hand on it somewhere, and if the piece blows hold on tight! Staying in balance above your last piece is crucial, which gets harder when the terrain gets steeper, which is why aiding steep routes is hard.
now, another thing to think about, is with that lower daisy sinched in tight, you also have to be carefull not to pull upward or outward on your last peice while jumping up and down on your higher one.
good bouncing is a skill, and it seperates the men from the boys in hard aid. get lots of practice on easy stuff where blowing a piece while bouncing it is more unlikely, and holds less serious consequences.
Those Yates daisies with the screamer attached might be worth it also, the jury is still out for me on those...
hope that made sense, cheers
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ryan112ryan
Feb 16, 2005, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: while ryans statement is true, taking a daisy fall is bad, me thinks he has no real experience aid climbing
this is very true, i'll admit it (not to say that i wouldn't like to try it some day), just thought i would share the info on falling on non-dynamic ropes/webbing, its somthing to think about :) all of what lambone said seem to be right (for the little knowledge i have about aid)
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lambone
Feb 16, 2005, 6:44 PM
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your right though, you want to avoid daisy falls at all costs. many recent accounts of daisy falls gone bad, including PTPP breaking his ankle on WSR.
cheers
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johnhenry
Feb 17, 2005, 1:04 AM
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What kind of daisies do you have? Metolius daisies will break( and are designed to do so) if you take to hard a fall on them.
All in all, this is a very good thing, as long as you are not on some hairball pitch or you don't botch your first couple of placements.
A European climber ruptured his splean and died from a daisy chain fall.
Anyhow, climb safe.
john
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sactownclimber
Feb 17, 2005, 1:11 AM
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In reply to: A European climber ruptured his splean and died from a daisy chain fall.
Died from rupturing his spleen, or died from other injuries and just happened to also rupture his spleen? If the former, I didn't know you could die from rupturing your spleen. If the latter, a ruptured spleen seems inconsequential/irrelevant in light of the fact that he died from presumably much more catastrophic injuries.
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lambone
Feb 17, 2005, 5:20 AM
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either way I wouldn't want to be halfway up El Cap with a ruptured spleen...sheesh.
maybe those yates screamer daisies arn't such a bad idea afterall.
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epic_ed
Feb 17, 2005, 5:58 AM
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I still use the Metolius adjustables. I have a set of the beefier Yates, but I wasn't able to get as comfortable using them, so I switched back to the Metolius. Their strength rating is definitely a concern and I'd prefer the security of the Yates. To help mitigate the risk I never consider them as part of my safety system, only use them as a part of my moving system, and replace them one a year.
As to the OPs question -- Lambone has some good input. I've seen many variations on the bounce testing routine; some are clever and others are down right funny. If we're talking C1/C2 placements, I generally just give them a quick stomp and move up. If we're talking about a suspect piece, then I step and place as high as I can from my aiders, clip in my next set of aiders to the piece I'm going to test, and then go down a step or two on the piece I'm standing on. I then cinch up my daisey and lean on the piece (don't look at it). If it tolerates that pretty well, I then put one foot into the aider of the piece I'm testing and maintain my center of balance on the lower piece. From a well balanced stance (or as balance as possible), I start stomping on the aider to test the piece and wail on it as hard as I feel necessary to make a decision to move up on it or try something else. If the piece blows I am still stable on my lower piece and shouldn't take any sort of fall, therefore avoiding a daisey fall while bounce testing.
The next step is important, and where I suspect most of us take daisey falls. Once you've committed to the piece you're done bounce testing. Put all of your weight on it. Once your weight is off the lower piece, unclip the lower aider/daisey ASAP, and clip in the rope to the piece. That way if the piece blows while you're moving up on it, your rope takes the energy of the fall and not your daisey.
Ed
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oldfart
Feb 17, 2005, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I keep my adjustable daisey and ladder clipped into the same biner, my question is how to properly bounce test with this set up, my issue is taking a daisey fall. Should I extend the baisey to my lower piece prior to bounce testing, or leave it short? Seems like the safest way would be to use two seperate biners but I don't want the hassel and extra two inches... Any recomdations? taking a fall on a daisy is a real bad idea, because it has no stretch check this out: http://www.southeastclimbing.com/...ical_forces.htm#dead climbing magazine also had a short article on this :) check out DR. piton's stuff, he describes how to bounce test etc :)
I am not as tactful as lambone, but I will try.
May I suggest that, for now, for activities not involving the use of a top rope, you refrain from proferring any type of declarative statement that even sounds like climbing advice?
Also, based on your previous contributions, might I further suggest that it would be a good idea if, for the foreseeable future, 99-100% of all data exiting your brain involving climbing be phrased in the form of a question?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...0&highlight=#1005390
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...0&highlight=#1002260
Thank you.
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lambone
Feb 17, 2005, 6:34 AM
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ah give the guy a break oldfart...he's just trying to be helpfull. why should we give your identityless persona any credibility? at least he's honest.
if you click on his link it is actually some interesting reading. he's just sharing information...isn't that what we are all doing here anyway?
I could do without that horrible signature though...what an eyesore, wtf is that anyway? climber meets big game hunter? Seeing a tigers head on a wall really pisses me off...ggggrrrrr
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ryan112ryan
Feb 17, 2005, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: ah give the guy a break oldfart...he's just trying to be helpfull. why should we give your identityless persona any credibility? at least he's honest. if you click on his link it is actually some interesting reading. he's just sharing information...isn't that what we are all doing here anyway?
thanks, :wink: then again he is right, though in my defense my two statements were referenceing and refering to those who have signifantly more expeirence than me
In reply to: I could do without that horrible signature though...what an eyesore, wtf is that anyway? climber meets big game hunter? Seeing a tigers head on a wall really pisses me off...ggggrrrrr
sorry that you don't like it, i have become bored of it lately, but its from Monty Python, the clip is pretty funny
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ryan112ryan
Feb 17, 2005, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ah give the guy a break oldfart...he's just trying to be helpfull. why should we give your identityless persona any credibility? at least he's honest. if you click on his link it is actually some interesting reading. he's just sharing information...isn't that what we are all doing here anyway? thanks, :wink: then again he is right, though in my defense my two statements were referenceing and refering the reader to those who have signifantly more expeirence than me, but in the end, yeah, im a newbie In reply to: I could do without that horrible signature though...what an eyesore, wtf is that anyway? climber meets big game hunter? Seeing a tigers head on a wall really pisses me off...ggggrrrrr sorry that you don't like it, i have become bored of it lately, but its from Monty Python, the clip is pretty funny |
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piton
Feb 17, 2005, 9:17 PM
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real quick a fall on your daisy can break your back. put an airvoyager on your daisy. be safe
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epic_ed
Feb 17, 2005, 9:42 PM
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Hey Mike -- was that first fall you describe on Zodiac? About the only place I can think of that has back to back #4's is the 14th pitch of Zodiac. :mrgreen:
Ed
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ricardol
Feb 17, 2005, 10:17 PM
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Ive taken 2 daisy chain falls.
1 - a pink tricam skated pulled and i daisied fell onto a blue alien
2 - a blue alien came out and i daisied onto a black alien.
both times the fall was not during testing. I've pulled several pieces while testing, and if you test correctly you should have no problems like falling onto the piece you are on.
The trick is hold on to the piece you are on.. or hold on to some feature of the wall.. as you stomp on the piece you are testing with one foot. (or do whatever other testing method you like)
Both of these daisy falls were on Yates daisies ... the fall hurt like a MOFO .. but the daisies did not break.
I now use metolious daisies (easier to use for me) .. i dont worry about them breaking because the rope is stil there and should catch me on the next piece.
Ed: why do you replace your daisies every year .. seems like a waste, there is no way you're putting enough wear and tear (unless you do trad with them too, etc) .. on them.
.. but i agree with whats been said -- the first thing to do once you've shifter your weight to your new piece is to remove your aiders from the previous piece -- this limits the ammount of time you expose yourself to a daisy fall...
-- one of these days i'm going to take a nasty daisy fall though -- since i hardly even cinch them tight while moving up on the aiders .. usually they are at close to full extension as i shift onto the new piece .. (unless i am afraid that the top piece is going to blow)
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mtnfreak
Feb 17, 2005, 11:43 PM
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I have been spending a lot of time looking at spleens and other 'sacs of blood' in the anatomy cadaver lab lately, and yup, all the examples from the hospital show that we aren't as protected as we think. A friend of a friend died two nights ago from a blunt force trauma to the head, funny thing, he was fine for the first 30 mins, then his cranium filled with blood, the pressure shut off circulation from the internal carotids, pinched the medulla and all the rest, long story short, he had a sezure and died for apparently no reason later in his basketball game. Basically, wear a helmet, and don't fall on static lines. Unfortunately, I have fallen a full 7 feet on my 3.5 foot black diamond daisy chain while climbing my first aid lead on the east route on Monkey Face. I fell on a orange Metolius three cam unit, with only one and a half lobes in a shallow crack. The rock itself fractured, but the fall was hard enough to deform the lobes and luckily they held! Won't forget to unclip my daisy chain from now on. My legs were numb for a long time.
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oldfart
Feb 18, 2005, 3:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ah give the guy a break oldfart...he's just trying to be helpfull. why should we give your identityless persona any credibility? at least he's honest. if you click on his link it is actually some interesting reading. he's just sharing information...isn't that what we are all doing here anyway? thanks, :wink: then again he is right, though in my defense my two statements were referenceing and refering to those who have signifantly more expeirence than me In reply to: I could do without that horrible signature though...what an eyesore, wtf is that anyway? climber meets big game hunter? Seeing a tigers head on a wall really pisses me off...ggggrrrrr sorry that you don't like it, i have become bored of it lately, but its from Monty Python, the clip is pretty funny
Since Ryan112 does actually sound like a good guy, I will depart momentarily from my normal modus operandi of being an asshole and apologize for teeing off for marginal cause -- but only because the two replies above showed more tact and humility than all the posts on the whole rest of this site put together. What the hell? Don't you people know this is RC.com?
Since I normally am inclined to rail against people who are assholes to others on this site for no apparent reason, I will, in this case, kick my own ass.
My concern, however, was and will continue to be the frequency and enthusiasm with which uninformed opinions are offered on this site, and I will continue to offer my somewhat unrestrained feedback on that issue.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
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epic_ed
Feb 18, 2005, 6:23 AM
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In reply to: Ed: why do you replace your daisies every year .. seems like a waste, there is no way you're putting enough wear and tear (unless you do trad with them too, etc) .. on them.
Yeah, that's what Pete thought, too. I know his were more than a year old, but since it's well established that even the new ones can fail from a small daisey fall, once a year is my comfort level with their wear and tear.
Ed
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wildbillc
Feb 18, 2005, 11:36 PM
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Thanks for the feed back and keep it coming if you have more. I heard from a Metolius staff the actual rating on the adjustables are around 1500 lbs. Hope I never hit hard enough to break one...
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