I didn't say that they don't notice that draws are left up. I said they don't care that draws are left up.
I doubt that that is true, but I'll keep it in mind at the next wilderness sport crag I visit.

My point was that the land managers indeed DO care. Sometimes (and depending on location) quite a bit, enough so to actually consider prosecution. One good friend of mine was lucky enough to sneak out of a HUGE fine, and even got back his Bosch, after drilling a super-remote Wilderness crag in NH. He had left a pack with gear, a fixed line, and even a *camera* with photos in it that showed him mucho-psyched about his exploits making 3/8ths inch holes.

This is why we should all be so lucky to live in small, discrete New England communities... parenthetical, I know.

The point I might eventually make: keep the fixed gear as inobvious as possible. "Fixed" draws are antithetical to this.

So with that mindset your essentially saying that if you were walking across a parking lot, and there was a hundred dollar bill laying there, you wouldn't touch it? In the areas that i climb, unless the first ascentionist hung draws on the route, and nobody is working it, its fair game, (bail biners, quick links, nuts, cams whatever) If you walk off and leave it, its there for the taking. Maybe west coast ethic is different.....

By your refrence the 'dude' at the bar is obviously 'working' the shots.....oh and don't climb at any of my local crags, but what about that hundred eh?



*EDIT* I'd like to apologize for whats afore mentioned in this post, let me rephrase my stance....if I know its a project i've seen the guy working on it or heard of it no i won't touch em, but i've i'm at my crags say 10 times in 2 weeks, never seen anybody on it and draws are there, they are there for the picking, if somebody askes about em n stuff, i'll give em back. but if the hang for a lenghy amount of time and nobodys working it, weren't put up by the first asentionist they are considered abandoned in my opinion.

anyone who has posted a response saying that you should have been smarter, or not left them so long, or whatever, give your f---ing head a shake. seriously, welcome to climbing. it's f---ing noobs like you who have no understanding of the ethics of the sport.

Are there really so few of us in the climbing community who dislike the appearance of walls full of hanging draws that its become acceptable to install permanent chain draws wherever they are convenient?

but here's a thought, why don't you educate your peers? perhaps show them a picture of the Gallery in Red Rocks...

If I came upon a route that had a set of draws on it and wanted to climb the route. I'd remove the draws, only because I don't trust equipment when I don't know it's history.

Absolutley pathetic someone would take draws off a climb like that i mean how else do you project a climb or get an fa when you have to put draws on take em off and so on i would think climbers in this day in age would have more respect pathetic...

Hey Jay, what route is that?

I think they should get stronger. I don't really mind seeing draws on a sick kauk route out on some random dome in Toulumne. It makes me want to try it. But I think it would be cool if spurt climbers reconized what a red point really is.

Yo check out all the booty out at Red Rocks, oh thay are fixed? Cool! My friends Jim and D want to drill some 5.10- pockets on that wall right in between those two routes to the right of you and then hang some chains with biners on them because we don't have those quick draw things.

Just because the land managers care in wilderness areas does not mean they do elsewhere. In my experience, they do not.

Only a pansy sport climber would even consider starting such a silly thread. Use your head. If you leave a bunch of gear in the woods three hours from home, its gonna disappear.