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no_one
Feb 5, 2005, 12:24 AM
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Has anyone tried the new trango cinch as a solo device? If so what did you think? Thanks.
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labrat0065
Feb 5, 2005, 12:28 AM
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i have used one to belay lead, but not for soloing, HOWEVER, i wouldnt use it, because unlike a gri gri, which can easily be modified to feed rope faster for solo, and afix a chest harness loop. the cinch is rather small. and it is not shaped well for soloing, AND the cinch is of a different material than the grigri, which would have an adverse affect of modification. i feel that a purpse made solo devise like a silent prter, might be a good idea, however if you are looking for a belay devise that seconds as a solo, the good old grigri is probably your best bet, its only what 20 extra dollars. and my life is certaintly worth 20 dollars.
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epic_ed
Feb 5, 2005, 12:59 AM
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I've wondered about this, myself, and asked about it buried somewhere in another thread. Didn't get a response at the time
I solo with an unmodifed gri gri and would have no interest in making any changes to the Cinch. It either works for soloing, as is, or I'm not using it. I have yet to even fondle a Trango Cinch, so I really don't know how it may stack up against the gri gri. It would be great to hear from a guinea pig who has given it a whirl, though.
Ed
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cyanamid
Feb 5, 2005, 1:16 AM
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I'm also curious. I know that the modification people usually do to the Gri-Gri is to make it feed more easily by straightening the rope path out, roughly to the same rope path that the Cinch has right from the factory (just got mine, and I'm looking at my Gri-Gri and Cinch side by side, neither are modified). Just from looking at it, it doesn't seem that the Cinch would need any modifications, nor does it lool like any are possible. Anyone have any *real* experience, even just TR soloing? Anything? Anyone?
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ricardol
Feb 5, 2005, 2:26 AM
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i solo with an unmodified grigri ..
.. this question has been asked .. though i think never answered because nobody has gone out and tried it ..
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no_one
Feb 19, 2005, 6:41 AM
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I did get a chance to play with the cinch a little. I fixed a rope to the bottom corner of my basement climbing wall and did a 25' V1 traverse. It would lock down in a hurry with the slightest pull, and with a real gental grasp with a free hand it feeds rope with almost no friction. This could be sweet! Got to get it on real rock though. I'm not sure how strong it is, but it seems like I heard that it's stronger than the gri gri. Does any know what they're both rated at. I have them both sitting infront of me but it doesn't say on them.
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hexxxx
Feb 19, 2005, 6:58 AM
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I use my petzl "mini traxion" as a self belay device. it works great. and because of the pulley system it just slides up.
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tradjunkie
Feb 21, 2005, 2:13 AM
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In reply to: I use my petzl "mini traxion" as a self belay device. it works great. and because of the pulley system it just slides up.
i'd stay away from anything with teeth of a self belay device. your just asking for it if you take a whiper...
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greenmachineman7
Feb 21, 2005, 2:24 AM
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ill second the previous post. can you say "core shot" ??
*gulp* :shock:
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jsj42
Feb 21, 2005, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: Has anyone tried the new trango cinch as a solo device? If so what did you think? Thanks.
I've used it a fair bit for top rope soloing or following without a belay. It is excellent. The rope feeds much more easily than with a gri gri, and locks very quickly.
One of the fastest ways to multipitch with a party of three is to fix a rope for the third to follow while you are belaying the leader on the next pitch. We did this with the Cinch last fall and climbed Fine Jade just about as fast as we could have with a party of two.
I haven't used it for lead soloing yet, but I have no reservations about doing so.
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epic_ed
Feb 21, 2005, 5:06 AM
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This dude tried it:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=64986&f=0&b=0#msg65003
Doesn't look real promising.
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gunksgoer
Feb 21, 2005, 5:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I use my petzl "mini traxion" as a self belay device. it works great. and because of the pulley system it just slides up. i'd stay away from anything with teeth of a self belay device. your just asking for it if you take a whiper...
i wouldnt use it for lead, but its tried and true for solo TR belay, petzl even reccomends it to be used this way in their little booklet.
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ricardol
Feb 21, 2005, 7:16 AM
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.. hmm .. alot of these responses are not addressing the real question.
the question was posted to the Aid Climbing forum .. about self-belay with a cinch ..
So obviously we're talking about LEAD SOLO AIDING .. not top-rope soloing ...
The mini-traxion is NOT a good LEAD SOLO BELAY device
Has anyone used the Cinch for SOLO LEAD BELAY?
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no_one
Feb 22, 2005, 2:07 AM
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Thanks Ed for the link to supertopo. Mark answered this question pretty well. Any body else wondering the same, check out the link Ed gave above.
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maldaly
Feb 22, 2005, 11:07 PM
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Gang,
We can not, under any circumstances, recommend the Cinch for soloing, either TR or lead. We've done an enormous amount of testing on it, all to get it dialed for belaying and lowering rock climbers. We haven't spent one second testing it for soloing. So, if you do try it, AMFYOYO.
Here's the way my lawyer wants me to say the same thing...
The Cinch is not designed or approved for solo or self belaying under any circumstances. Using the Cinch in this manner can result in death and/or serious injury. The uses for the Cinch that are being discussed on this site have not been tested and are not approved uses. The Cinch was not designed as a self belay device and such improper use is potentially fatal. The Cinch is designed, sold, and approved for use only as illustrated in the pamphlet that the Cinch is sold with.
Use of the Cinch in any manner not illustrated in that pamphlet can result in death and/or serious injury. The user is responsible for learning the correct way to operate the Cinch and operating the Cinch correctly. The user is responsible for any and all death, injury and/or risks arising out of his or her use of the Cinch. If you do not accept this responsibility, do not use the Cinch. THE MANUFACTURER AND RESELLERS OF THE CINCH EXPLICITLY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY FOR ANY DEATH, INJURY OR DAMAGE TO ANY PERSON OR PROPERTY THAT MAY OCCUR THAT IS RELATED TO THE USE OF THIS PRODUCT.
Mal
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epic_ed
Feb 23, 2005, 2:14 AM
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Cool! Input from "the dude", himself. Thanks Malcolm.
Ed
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maldaly
Feb 23, 2005, 5:53 AM
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Thanks for the understanding. Maybe one of these days we can spend some time taking the Cinch technology and apply it to a really badass solo device.
Mal
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epic_ed
Feb 23, 2005, 6:12 AM
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That would be great. What do you solo with? Any insight on the advantages/short comings of current popular devices? Many of us use the gri gri; a recent thread discussed the Silent Partner. I've tried nearly all of them and my only beef with the gri gri is lack of redundancy for a clip in point in case the device gets cross loaded on the attaching biner. It would be great to hear your thoughts.
Ed
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manacubus
Feb 23, 2005, 7:26 AM
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I own a Cinch. I wouldn't use it for solo aiding. The reason is that (like a Shunt and unlike a Gri Gri) it bites all the way down on the rope. In extreme circumstances, this could cause the rope to fail (as documented with the Shunt).
For belaying though, and for use in the (slightly modified) Frog-method of ascending when following aid pitches, it's great. In the Frog system, it's superior to the Gri Gri.
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maldaly
Feb 23, 2005, 4:54 PM
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The easy answer is that I don't rope solo. Everything I know about it is third hand. I've done some stupid stuff without a rope so maybe I should learn the rope solo trick. Seems like a lot of work though.
In answer to manacubus' observation that the rope bites all the way down, one of the tests we do with the Cinch is to make it the anchor in a UIAA drop tower and catch a factor 2 fall (80kG) with it. It's a worst case scenario but it holds and doesn't cut the rope. That doesn't meant that it would always holkd a F2 fall in the field. In a UIAA tower, a brand new rope is used, everything is lined up perfectly and all the variables are totally controlled. Lots more goes on in the field where there is no way to control even a single variable.
Mal
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landongw
Jul 19, 2005, 7:48 AM
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on how to use the grigri as a self-belay "NOT recommended by petzl, as are 90% of the uses for the grigri." - unnamed famous petzl sponsored climber.
i have used both of these devices for lead soloing. personally i prefer the cinch, it doesn't need to be modified, even for a keeper cord. it feeds better as a self-belay and it locks better, IMO. i wear it between my chest and sit harness and thread a piece of elastic thread through the center pivot hole to hold the cinch upright, otherwise it won't self feed at all. With a grigri you have to drill a hole on the other side to do this. and i mean THIN elastic thread, just enough to hold it up a little. If i fall and am upright it locks up no problem. I'm using a thick rope with a nice fuzzy sheath so there's enough drag in the device that if i were to fall upside down it would catch enough to stretch the elastic and let the cinch pivot until it locked. while i have tested this (upside down theory) in the garage i have not done any real world testing with the it yet, i'll drop a dummy down a cliff and let you know.
while i understand and accept that the grigri and cinch are not designed or intended for self-belay, the cold fact is that people ARE going to use it for that. And truthfully in some situations there is no other choice, and a grigri self-belay becomes the safest option. EXAMPLE: In an emergency bail you are pulling your line down and it gets stuck, and you have only pulled 5 or ten feet. Your options are ascend the rope with prusiks (or whatever) and hope the knot doesn't come out, placing gear as you go. Or use the grigri/cinch as a self belay and lead up the rope placing pieces and tying backup knots. The drawback of using the prusiks or knots alone to free up is you would have to yard out slack between placements, with much more fall exposure. A slow aid lead is not an option because you are already out of time and a thunderstorm is on your ass, this is why you are bailing. Another scenario is an injured partner and you do not have enough gear to risk going down 15+ pitches and running out, and you are closer to the top or an easier descent route. It may very well be faster and in the interest of life to use your cinch in unrecommended mode. I guess this is a little off subject, but i for one choose to be intimately familiar with the abilities and limitations of my gear so that i'm prepared for the unforseen situation.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 19, 2005, 12:49 PM
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Malcom. Since so many people will end up useing the cinch as a self belay and seeing as the king of the self lead belay devices costs$225.00 Why don't you take the time to test the cinch for self belay, make whatever modifications needed and then market the new improved models as a self belay device?
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cchildre
Jul 19, 2005, 2:29 PM
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In reply to: the good old grigri is probably your best bet, its only what 20 extra dollars. and my life is certaintly worth 20 dollars.
Not to split hairs, but you speak of the cinche like it's a deathtrap when compared to Gri. I personally prefer the cinche for bringing up a 2nd. The Gri is like a fat boat anchor in comparison to the Cinche and IMO brings up a 2nd solo better since it locks out with less rope speed than the Gri does. I know this is related to soloing so I might be taking you out of context in this instance. I just would like to point out that from the factory both devices are safe to use when employed as directed by the manufacturer.
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no_one
Jul 20, 2005, 12:56 AM
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Since I started this thread I to have had a chance to try out the unmodified Gri Gri, the Modified Gri Gri and the Cinch on a few pitches each. The cinch definatly feeds smother and locks quicker, it also, as others have mentioned, doesn't require any modifications. I felt that the only down fall is that it's awkward to lower out with on penjis and such, because of the tiny handel, this makes for a jerky lower out, which if done on scary gear would raise the pucker factor a bit. The gri gri is tried and true. The truth is, I still can't decide which I like better! I just can't get past that tiny handel!
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cjstudent
Jul 20, 2005, 1:12 AM
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I've used it for soloing aid.
I wouldnt really want to solo free climb with any device, but that is just me.
For soloing aid it isnt all that bad. It feeds better than the gri-gri. I havent taken a fall on it though. And as i would assume u would do with all solo devices, I had a backup knot tied.
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