I'd hate to get cought in the middle of this honesty.

Just as I shared a story...which pointed out his kindness towards me...I would like to share a similair story concerning Mr. Smoot.

Brain put up a route on the backside of the Great white throne a couple of years ago (maybe only 1?). I Pm'd him showing interest in repeating his route.
Without hesitation he mailed(as in postal service) me a topo and supplied me with any beta I asked for.

So, without getting involved in any of the friction going on here, I'd just like to say thanks Brian... I hope to return the favor some day.

josh

"I would like to share a...story concerning Mr. Smoot. Without hesitation...Brian...supplied me with any..kindness...and put up..the backside of..me..without any..friction.
I'd just like to say thanks Brian...I hope to return the favor some day."

I must say, Brian really is the MAN. I can only imagine what his bivies with Dave and his dress are like. (But that alone is plenty of fun.) And just how does Brian do it without any friction?

I am the Walrus writes....


Good question...

The only other was myself when I dressed up in drag, which wasn't very often since Utah only serves 3.2 beer.

As for the thread's controversies ... it might not be obvious to casual readers, but I think there are only a few core claims actually being disputed here -- that is, facts claimed explictly by one party and denied explicitly by the other. Chief among these claims is what kicked the fight off: dangle's multiple statements on the first page of this thread that Jones dishonestly claimed 1970s first ascents, through

"erroneous years listed for numerous FAs provided by Jones",

and that

"his [Jones'] chronology predates his routes by a year or two, he postdated some of mine"

and furthermore, that Jones'

"false claim"

of 70s ascents was the basis for Middendorf's history. Later on the first page, dangle wrote that in an R&I interview, dangle deliberately credited Pey rather than Jones with the FA of Space Shot, in order to repay

"Jones' deliberate dishonesty with a speck of my own.
It was a private joke to further obscure the history and deny the original liar [Jones] credit."

Elsewhere on the first page, dangle said that Jones

"also wrote a telling piece of fiction called B. G. Goes to Zion.
B G stands for Blond God and while Jones claimed to have created the character from whole cloth it was a thinly veiled depiction of Fischer'

Jones did not enter the thread until midway through its second page, but then categorically denied dangle's accusations:

"Although I'm not inclined to lower myself, Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums deserves some sort of rebuttal because the poison of his comments should not pose as 'history'.

First, other than the 1984 article in Climbing I have never provided anything other than copies of my original topos for anyone's guide, period. I never promoted my routes. I have always simply provided topos to people who asked. All the topos I submitted were original with correct first ascent dates and personnel. No guidebook author ever ran copy by me for final proof. Any errors in their guides are the fault of the authors."

Also, Jones said that he did not base the 1983 story BG Goes to Zion on Fischer, and in fact didn't meet him until later.

In subsequent posts, dangle stuck by his accusations and Jones stuck by his defense.

Its about time to address ambler's list though I doubt that resolution is likely by doing so. Still it won't be due to my unwillingness to speak directly to the issues in question.
....
The first piece of evidence would be the Jones/Pey list in Climbing October,'84,pg 34. This list postdates the FA of Cerberus. It also puts forth that the FA of Spaceshot is credited to Pey and myself.

In the late '70s and early '80s, Ron Olevsky and Dave Jones were responsible for a new wave of quality routes, as they developed a new clean ethic largely made possible by the advent of Friends, revolutionizing climbing smooth parallel cracks in the desert. Two separate trends that enabled many of the longer routes to be climbed clean developed: Ron Olevsky began a trend of modifying placements on routes to enable subsequent ascents to be completely cean, while Dave Jones found natural lines and pushed free climbing standards so fewer non-clean placements were necessary. Routes of this period include The Thunderbird Wall and Catharsis in Kolob and Monkey Finger Wall, Spaceshot, Touchstone Wall, Shune's Buttress and the Fang Wall in the main canyon.

Touchstone Wall FA 1/17/77

Catharsis FA Mark Pey, Ron Olevsky October '83

The Middendorf history would have been more accurate to say," In the late seventies and early eighties" RESPECTIVELY.
Furthermore it could have included a few words about Fischer.

Furthermore it misrepresented CONSTRUCTIVE scarring. It was a technique that did not advocate scarring but rather advocated the MINIMIZING of scarring where necessary.

Sure ambler, Jones had no ill intent.
That's why he dredged up all the BS rather than answer the questions.
What does constructive scarring have to do with drilled pockets?
Or don't you know everything about that too?
Its remarkable how much authority can be assumed by one who hides behind anonymity.

You want questions answered; how about answering mine concerning the wearing down of holds before I provide you with another response? How much harder does a route have to become before some remedy becomes justifiable? Or do you just tick routes and say its the next guy's problem?