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mr.poo
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Feb 22, 2005, 6:29 PM
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What happended to the PCA because they seem to have vanished.
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 22, 2005, 7:09 PM
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First, the organization was unable to raise the 20,000 dollar purse that made the PCA famous in the first place. Climbing companies and other companies that were involved with PCA, just didn't feel that giving the PCA money would help them promote their business or product. In relation, the climbing companies that stop sponsoring ClimbXmedia, resulted in the demise of cXm, which also cut out internet video of the PCA events which were well done by cXm.
Second, the amount of gyms that the PCA went to, was the Front and the Spot. There just wasn't enough gym owners with the proper size and wall angles to accomdate a PCA comp.
Third, the PCA was for entertainment only, it didn't decide the US team or anything, it was really just an exhibition event. You had the same finalists at every comp.
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fluxus
Feb 23, 2005, 6:10 AM
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I don't think the reasons given above are exactly right. from conversations I had with a few of the PCA folks it, seemed clear to me that their business model was not based exclusively on the climbing industry, as the above post implied. They knew that the dollar amounts they were dealing with were too large for the PCA to be supported by the climbing industry alone.
There were trying to get a T.V. contract but I don't think that ever came to be. And they needed an income source of that nature because of the overhead of the events.
They may be back but it looks to me like one in a long series of faliures at climbing comps because the amount of money they were spending was not grounded in the reality of the money they could raise or on proper dealing with the mass media.
The ABS is really the organization that got it right, in that it places its emphasis on the grass routes aspect of climbing comps. Anything like the PCA needs to grow out of something like the ABS that enjoys broad grass roots support.
Of course Scott, the remarkable guy who started the ABS, is no longer involved so we will see how many more seasons the ABS can put together without him.
peace
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kalcario
Feb 23, 2005, 6:51 AM
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What good does it do for the climbing industry to promote bouldering? What products are being promoted/advertised? Foam pads? It's not like surfing, where your average dedicated surfer has 10 surfboards in his garage...1 foam pad pretty much covers it, doncha think? Since boulderers rarely become climbers, the climbing industry would be shooting itself in the foot by promoting bouldering, which I think they're starting to figure out.
A TV contract...don't make me laugh.
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phaedrus
Feb 23, 2005, 2:32 PM
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The students on my team and I were discussing that very thing yesterday, and in my opinion, the reality of it is that, unless you're a climber or someone has takes a serious whipper, climbing is pretty darned boring to watch, really. I can watch it and appreciate it for the skill involved, but for the average person, there's not a lot going on, or at least not a lot they can understand and appreciate. I could be wrong, but I'd heard the X-Games drop climbing for that very reason.
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sdwoods
Feb 23, 2005, 4:06 PM
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Addressing some points from above:
The PCA was the catalyst for many great things to come. They were a ground breaking organization and produced an exciting format that many comps try to emulate today.
Bouldering IS an exciting competition format as was just witnessed by some 400 spectators at the recent ABS6 Nationals in Boulder. By far one of the largest crowds I have ever seen at an adult competition. The energy there was amazing and it was very PCA-like.
Scott Rennak is alive and well in the ABS. He emceed the recent ABS Nationals in boulder, and then the JIBS comp the next day. He is Mr. Energy and we all owe a big thank-you to him for all his hard work.
The climbing industry is not just making cams and slings. They make shoes, ropes, apparel, pads, etc... Comps are accessible to the non-climbing and beginner public, so they make a great venue to "show off" their goods, through their athletes, banners, or booths. Companies that did not have a presence at the ABS Nationals really missed out. Scott must have given a sponsor plug every five minutes.
[soap] My wife Carol went to the JIBS comp and noticed the lack of enthusiasm in the crowd. We surmised that the parents are just too competitive and that is why Scott nearly lost his voice trying to get the crowd into it. In contrast, the crowd at the ABS nationals (pre-keg) was electric and the competitors (as usual) were very supportive of each other, even with a cash purse on the line. It is imperative that the "spirit of competition" that exists today with the adult comps gets transmitted to the younger generation, or we will end up like the gymnastics scene (i.e. remember Nancy Kerrigan). [/soap]
Steve
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bustloose
Feb 23, 2005, 4:19 PM
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In reply to: What good does it do for the climbing industry to promote bouldering? [olive]-snip- useless drivel about owning pads -snip- [/olive]Since boulderers rarely become climbers, the climbing industry would be shooting itself in the foot by promoting bouldering, which I think they're starting to figure out. A TV contract...don't make me laugh.
shut. the. fukc. up. already.
bouldering is a part of climbing, and always will be. get used to it.
idiot.
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phaedrus
Feb 23, 2005, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What good does it do for the climbing industry to promote bouldering? [olive]-snip- useless drivel about owning pads -snip- [/olive]Since boulderers rarely become climbers, the climbing industry would be shooting itself in the foot by promoting bouldering, which I think they're starting to figure out. A TV contract...don't make me laugh. shut. the. fukc. up. already. bouldering is a part of climbing, and always will be. get used to it. idiot.
Dude... chill out a little... gotta cut back on that caffeine! :)
*hands bustloose a cup of chamomile tea*
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phaedrus
Feb 23, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: [soap] My wife Carol went to the JIBS comp and noticed the lack of enthusiasm in the crowd. We surmised that the parents are just too competitive and that is why Scott nearly lost his voice trying to get the crowd into it. In contrast, the crowd at the ABS nationals (pre-keg) was electric and the competitors (as usual) were very supportive of each other, even with a cash purse on the line. It is imperative that the "spirit of competition" that exists today with the adult comps gets transmitted to the younger generation, or we will end up like the gymnastics scene (i.e. remember Nancy Kerrigan). [/soap] Steve
I definitely agree with you, Steve. I think what we're starting to see more and more in the youth competition leagues is more and more "little league parents" getting involved. I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've seen and heard parents berating their kids for falling off a route or problem at a comp (I always find it ironic when it's parents who don't climb themselves). It's really kind of sad, and something that I'm really going to strive against in my work with the High School Climber's Federation (I'll post more on that later as that whole thing gets closer).
I was with my youngest son at a local gym yesterday when a mom approached me while I was coaching my son and my team. We chatted a bit and I mentioned that my son participates in the Denver Climbing League on a regular basis, which led to the inevitable "Does he do USA Climbing?" She seemed surprised, and perhaps even a little insulted, when I responded that my son and I hadn't really discussed it; that competitions were something he and I got involved in just for fun and that our focus wasn't on the competitive aspect of the sport.
On the other hand, the one thing I DO like about most of the parents I meet is that the majority of them do seem to "get it." It's those other ones we gotta watch out for, and maybe even educate a little. :)
T
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madriver
Feb 23, 2005, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: Of course Scott, the remarkable guy who started the ABS, is no longer involved so we will see how many more seasons the ABS can put together without him. peace
..so true. BTW...there were by most accounts over 1000 competitors and spectators at the Petzl Roc ABS 5 Championship. I have NEVER been to a comp that had the amount of energy and enthusiasm that Petzl Roc had. Alas, ET and Petzl Roc will not be running the comp in 2005.
ABS has the right idea. A collection of low key local comps that culminate in a Championship for those who want to compete. My worry is the marriage of USAC and ABS. As noted in a previous post, if the parents of child climbers become involved with the ABS format I see doom. Boulders are a different tribe, when parents and children overtake their ranks they will retreat. ABS is the perfect vehicle for a "PCA" to survive.
Bob
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madriver
Feb 23, 2005, 5:35 PM
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IMHO...
ABS...should align with gym owners to help market them. A national marketing program run by ABS would help recruit gym owners into a "subscription program" and promote them and manufactuers.
Got Milk!!!
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madriver
Feb 23, 2005, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: Second, the amount of gyms that the PCA went to, was the Front and the Spot. There just wasn't enough gym owners with the proper size and wall angles to accomdate a PCA comp
...don't agree. Many gyms can accomadate a Pro Bouldering Comp. The east coast has several as does the West Coast. PCA didn't seem to want to leave boulder.
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photon
Feb 23, 2005, 7:19 PM
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These types of indoor/outdor comp organizations will always fail in the usa imo. First of all the climbing community is quite small to begin with compared to most any other type of user group. Only a small percentage of that small group care about comps. Why would small not very rich climbing companies put large amounts of $ up for a small percentage of it's clientele? Once you get away from the climbing industry, most marketing groups outside the indurtry will just laugh when you ask for sponsorship money towards indoor climbing comps with 400 people attending (and this is an extreme number, most comps have far less attendance). Couple that with the fact that most non-climbers that have viewed indoor bouldering find it almost as enticing as indoor wool pulling or microwave cleaning seminars, you couldn't pay them to come and watch. Finally, 99% of all climbers are cheap, they aren't going to pay to watch people pull on plastic.
In short no money plus very little interest = goodbye and gooday
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madriver
Feb 23, 2005, 7:31 PM
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Photon..
Did you attend the last (2) ABS Championships at Boulder and Earth Treks in Timonium, MD ? You are correct about the sponshorship, the Petzl Roc/ ABS Championship is evidence of this. But, if the sponsors can see a viable marketing vehicle behing the series, I think this could change. Any one that was at Timonium the night of the Petzl/Roc comp will tell you it was electric. No paint dryin there my friend. There is room for 6-8 Petzl Roc Style Comps a year. Get Timmy O'Niel to open and you will be gauranteed a good time.
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photon
Feb 23, 2005, 7:56 PM
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Don't have to attend and you don't need to agree. Look at the track record for climbing comps/organizations in this country since the late 1980's. I'm not saying that parents or people who like to attend these don't enjoy them, (you are probably one or both). It will take a miracle though to make them viable economically on a large scale like the PCA tried to do.
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fluxus
Feb 23, 2005, 9:41 PM
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I don't really agree with what photon is saying either but his post does raise the issue of why us climbers have been so convinced for the past 20 years that competitions are the best way for the sport to" break out"? every one who has tried it has failed except for the ABS.
One thing that many of the failures have in common is that the people involved have been very political and have been trying to use their involvment as a way of meeting their own personal agendas (parents of young hot shots appear to be some of the worst offenders).
Further the people I have seen in action in these orgs. over the years have had very little vision, or creativity something that you must have if you are going to sell climbing, even to climbing companies!
peace
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olderic
Feb 23, 2005, 10:28 PM
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Without widespread PAYING support it (bouldering/climbing comps) just isn't going fly very long. Look at pro surfing, skiing, track, bicycling, etc. There have been numerous attempts to get these off the ground over the years but then end result was that they couldn't attract enough paying customers. There was always a group of excited folks when a new league or series was formulated believing that the big break through was finally here. But the critical mass was never achieved.
The ABS is currently seen as a qualified success but that is mainly though the increadible hardwork of a handful of people. It's inevitable that they will burn out (or go broke) - then what?
Climbing is not going to ever be exciting to watch for the non climber (no matter how many dynos you stick in the finals) and more so then most spots the participants would rather do it then watch - especially pay to watch.
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oldsalt
Feb 23, 2005, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: Without widespread PAYING support it (bouldering/climbing comps) just isn't going fly very long. Look at pro surfing, skiing, track, bicycling, etc. There have been numerous attempts to get these off the ground over the years but then end result was that they couldn't attract enough paying customers.
I find a great deal in common between surfers and climbers, with many of the same problems with competition. They are not really good spectator sports, as the most knowledgeable viewers would rather be out or up there.
I have surfed with some incredible surfers on the North Shore, at Makaha, Sandy Beach, even Indialantic who will/would never compete. Most surfers, like climbers, that I know do it for themselves. It is about laying it all out there, but with the maximum reasonable assurance of surviving.
The more you love life, the more thrilling it is on the edge.
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madriver
Feb 23, 2005, 11:03 PM
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I don’t think climbing or climbing comps need to be “mainstream” to be successful. If sponsors can see viable results or return from their investments, “they will come”. Results can come from cooperative marketing with gyms. More climbers in the gyms equal more people buying climbing gear. If gym owners have a marketing partner they will be more receptive to sponsoring comps. If manufacturers see a cooperative marketing effort between ABS and gym owners, and a statistical increase in membership can be shown, corporate dollars should follow. Tie Championship comps in with trade shows and demonstrations. ABS has a very good vehicle with which to start a marketing partnership. If there aren’t that many climbers, then how come there are so many gear and clothing companies not to mention gyms?
Got Milk?
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madriver
Feb 23, 2005, 11:16 PM
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....how many Car companies want their SUVs associated with climbing...Given enough time and effort comp climbing could prosper. Live entertainment and some beer would go a long way to enhance the events also.
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sdwoods
Feb 24, 2005, 6:05 AM
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In reply to: .... Live entertainment and some beer would go a long way to enhance the events also.
That's been the norm in Colorado for years. Tim O'neal and a local micro brew sponsor are staples in Boulder after a comp. :-)
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fluxus
Feb 24, 2005, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don’t think climbing or climbing comps need to be “mainstream” to be successful. If sponsors can see viable results or return from their investments, “they will come”. Amen to that brother.
Climbing as a sport does not need to be mainstream, but climbing as an industry does. Or at least it needs to see more growth. The economics of climbing are pretty hard for most companies, if they were selling more gear they might have some more money to put back into the sport.
Right now one of the problems is that purchasing ad space in the mags is still the best way to get people to see your product. Climbing claims a dist. of something like 80,000 copies per issue. a full page ad is about $3,000. If you have a banner hanging at a comp that attracts 100 people. How many comps do you need to sponsor before you reach 80,000 climbers? and can you reach them in a timely manner and for the same price? probably not. So the companies spend their money on what is tried and true for them. If someone came up with another means of advertising that is as good as the mags, I'm sure they would buy into it.
peace
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