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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Must you always antagonize me? Have I done something to you too? My hairstyle maybe?
In reply to: Ambler ain't that anon. See the cover of Climbing magazine in mid of the mid 70's...(!)... Well THAT certainly clears up the question. So, is one solution really to grind holes in the rock (or otherwise artificially enhance features) to preserve a routes difficulty rating? Yikes... -Brian in SLC
Please note; his words NOT mine.
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 7:25 PM
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To Darin,
Well said.
Should've listened to you.
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dmckj
Feb 24, 2005, 6:30 AM
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Hi Guys and Gals.....
I'm back....
Big-time Kudos to Ambler and Brian for carrying on my absence.
Ambler has admirably cut to the exact core of the issues at hand and, thankfully, without my boring input. Dangle has revealed himself in front of this entire web audience and it is far too late for him to retract his blather.
Dangle, once cornered, lashes out in the most pathetic manner. Imagine...a boy scout falls to his death and Dangle is busy lecturing folks about how the rope they replaced (at YOUR taxpayer's expense dear thread reader) wasn't tied in quite correctly. AND, my goodness, he goes off half-cocked (tried viagra recently Dangle, or is there no longer much angle to the the dangle?) and starts threatening all sorts of fantasy- induced lawsuits. Man....I couldn't have asked a better lead-in to the lawsuit story.
Would anyone bother to ask why Dangle wasn't there to help with the rescue, or why he wasn't climbing that day, or was he too busy talking to his broker or local herbal essence distributor? No, he is too busy playing victim. Meanwhile his arch-enemy Woods is busy with the unforgiveable sin of helping with a body recovery while using Dangle's rope.
I have also noted, dear thread readers, that NO ONE has bothered to pursue the Climb Against Nature story. Josh was on the trail, but backed off after Dangle chastized him for not buying a meal. (Lets' see... I pay for a meal and am therefore free to Bosh the living crap out of a virgin blank wall because I want to free climb where there are no holds...). I'm very disappointed. Guess I'll have to return to the scene of the crime, take photos, and post them for the hipocrisy of Dangle's rock conservation 'image' to take roost once and for all. Thank goodness I have a digital camera for the task.
And, again, Ambler has admirably gone back and taken a look at the facts of what was and what wasn't printed. I'll now upgrade that 3.2 pitcher to one of Guiness!
Oh yeah, and Brian is a good buddy of mine. When Dangle refers to us as 'BS' he must be referring to 'Both Sane', something he can only aspire to.
Good history coming up!
D
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dmckj
Feb 24, 2005, 3:01 PM
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Gentle Thread Readers,
It has, repeatedly, been brought to your and my attentions that elevated dialogue is the 'higher road' and preferred route of travel. I couldn't agree more. That being the case I kept my mouth shut about Dangle up until this thread.
But Dangle never had the right or privilege to make statements that are not based in fact, then challenge me on them, and then accuse me of lying with intent to deceive when I disagree with his characterization. For example, he STILL fantasizes that Fischer was the role model for B.G., this, of course, implying that my denial makes me an even MORE unconsciounable liar. Unreal.
The 'compromise' solution is not, as some have suggested, accepting some middle ground on this. What I have accused Dangle of (spreading lies about me, falsifying partners, drilling out routes to make them easier, drilling out blank faces to make them free climbable, threatening or following through with court actions) are all true and readily documentable. What he has claimed about me and my conspiratorial intentions are, flatly, not. Ambler has, admirably, laid out the fallacy of Dangle's claims.
Dangle's character has only been 'asassinated' by one person alone: himself. Presenting the facts of his actions and behavior does not in the least constitute an unfair attack against him, but rather presents a reckoning.
But, I don't see any self-realization on Dangle's horizon. So I'll add some more history segments and finish a few other tales and let this thread slowly trickle off.
But, heck, it sure has been a lot of fun in the meantime!!!
D
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ratagonia
Feb 24, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Contrary to what the little devil on each of the protagonists's shoulder is saying, most of us are here for the stories, not for the slagging.
More stories, please.
By the by, the stories make you look good, the slagging makes you look bad. Wouldn't you really rather look good?
T
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chairmanmeow
Feb 25, 2005, 1:01 AM
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Wow, Jones. Nearly a page of totally useless words. Not only did you fail to say anything new, you managed to find an even less eloquent and intelligible way to say the same tired sh!t you’ve been posting for weeks.
:deadhorse:
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 2:44 AM
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And he still hasn't answered about '70s routes, and John hasn't replied on the one word addition.
Well we're about to go over 20K views. Shouldn't there be some sort of ritual?
Festival of Equus Morti?
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dmckj
Feb 25, 2005, 2:50 AM
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Well....I'll quote the Beatles....
'But if you go listen to Chairmanmeow,
you ain't gonna make it with anyone, anyhow'.
Readers would do well to read Chairman Meow's cannonization of Dangle in another thread in this strip.
Historical installment coming up.
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rockprodigy
Feb 25, 2005, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: I wonder what a Yosemite history thread would read like...hopefully not like this slap-fest. Hopefully.
No, it would be a big circle-jerk of people patting each other on (or in) the back, because everyone who came to Yosemite with a slightly different approach from the "valley christians" was run out of town on a rail.
Yeah, the Yosemite locals were oh so much more friendly and accepting....
In Zion, different styles and different opinions are able to co-exist. I prefer that.
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 4:03 AM
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In reply to: " read Chairman Meow's cannonization of Dangle' Historical installment coming up.
He never pointed it. He only waved it around.
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chairmanmeow
Feb 25, 2005, 4:34 AM
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Dave Jones posted something related to route manufacturing several chapters back:
In reply to: Hard routes, ones that aren't dumbed down, protect themselves. For example, Empty Pages on Angels Landing or Wages of Sin on the Forbidden Wall are not prone to being destroyed because most folks are rightfully afraid of going up on them. That's great! No one is 'owed' the right to do a climb, nor to have the climb dumbed-down to their level. This promotes stupid climbing and gives many folks the delusion that they are big-wall capable when, in fact, they really aren't. At least not in Zion.
The purpose of constructive route creation is not to create “dumbed down” climbs because other climbers have some sort of “right to do a climb.” The goal is to make the route less fragile so it will survive more ascents and be there for future generations. However, the accessibility of a climb is inextricably tied to its danger and therefore its fragility, so making a route less fragile often makes it inherently less dangerous and therefore more accessible. More accessible routes like Touchstone give less experienced climbers something they can cut their teeth on, and the presence of such routes probably keeps hammer crazy newbies off the more difficult and fragile routes, in effect preserving them as well. I don’t think you can stop the increasing flow of climbers who want to experience Zion, nor do I think you should try, but you can make a place for the beginners to climb, and in doing so keep them off the thin nailing lines. Allowing our sport to develop a larger following could make a big difference in preserving our access to the cliffs in the future, and I think lines like Touchstone, Spaceshot, and Prodigal Sun help aid this process while preserving the cliffs. I mean really, Dave, isn’t there enough rock in southern Utah to go around? I promise us new kids will stay away from your precious Empty Pages and Wages of Sin; they’re all yours. I suppose it’s your prerogative to object to Ron’s routes opening the canyon to weekend warrior types like me, but it seems a bit duplicitous since you yourself fist climbed in Zion by repeating one of his lines.
Just my $.02
James in SLC
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 5:24 AM
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To Mike and Tom,
thank you for endorsing Darin's valuable contribution. Perhaps the only good to come of this "slapfest" (love it Mike!) was the eventual Jones year "nondenial" and the final partial disclosure by Middendorf for the basis of statements. Previously approached more than a half dozen times he had remained closed lipped.
Obviously the willingness to be forthright in accounts could have avoided great acrimony.
To the rest of you I apologize for allowing myself to get drawn into this.
In the spirit of celebrating our more adventurous lore perhaps henceforth we might address the more positive nature of our endeavors.
More anecfreakindotes!
Soloing big new routes in Zion is more than just 2 or 3 more times as much work. It is also a challenge to the spirit. The soloist always does the routefinding. The soloist always gets the first pitch of the day without belaying from the ledge. The soloist always goes to clear the bag. The soloist always leads the crux.
Unaware of its history Dave soloed Monkeyfinger thinking he was the first to lead every pitch, and I know he tried to put up the Swiss-American , the Fang Wall, and the Apex Wall, and if I remember right also spent a day on the Silmaril alone. Perhaps having "pushed standards" and done "more walls" than anyone Dave will tell a story of one that he put up solo.
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ratagonia
Feb 25, 2005, 5:24 AM
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Rah rah. An intelligent post from The Chairman.
Let me give you the perspective from a non-hardman.
There's 6 climbs I can do in Zion. Let's count em: Prodigal, Touch, Space Shot, Moonlight, Lunar X, MonkeyFinger. There's some free climbs too, but I can't do desert crack 5.10, and when I went to go do The Headache, I used the Bjornstead 'guide', so I was wandering off somewhere else and got on a climb I definitely could not do. The next level of climbs up are a BIG step up, and really, I'd rather go to Red Rox, or if I'm gonna climb walls, I'd rather go to Yo.
I know its not true, but it sure is convenient, because it keeps the gumbys on a small selection of climbs, and keeps the other climbs not only uncrowded, but also keeps them from getting beat up in that soft Zion stuff.
It's good. And Dangle's ethic of creating fun lines for the masses is greatly appreciated. Heck doesn't take much, just clean the pins the right way, and don't go up when its wet. I hear the thin bits on Spaceshot are really thin right now - but that came from non-aid climbers, so... hard to say- could be actually A1 still. Was one move on a 2 RP in 1995.
Tom
Tom
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 5:58 AM
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Tom
Tom
Sheer Lunacy goes at almost all C1.
Now which is the PM button...
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pmyche
Feb 25, 2005, 6:07 AM
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Thanks for the refinement, Ron. And the good reads past and future.
-M
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clmbr121
Feb 25, 2005, 6:39 PM
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I am loving this whole thread...Zion's darker side.
It is sad to know that these great stories came at the cost of a friendship...
I got my first exposure to climbing at Zion, and can't wait to get back to see those beautiful walls again...and Springdale is still one of the coolest small towns in America.
Danlge, Dave, any suggestions on easy to moderate free routes? The longer the better.
BTW...does anyone have any good stories about the local legend Stoneman?
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brianinslc
Feb 25, 2005, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: Tom, Sheer Lunacy goes at almost all C1.
Maybe except that last pitch off the T* Tower. Spooky and kinda thin. Free climbing bolts out there...but...kind of a scary traverse as well.
Great route, great finish. Classic.
Thanks,
Brian in SLC
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flamer
Feb 26, 2005, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: Danlge, Dave, any suggestions on easy to moderate free routes? The longer the better.
PM Bsmoot about his route on the backside of the Great White Throne....
josh
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dangle
Feb 26, 2005, 4:26 AM
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flamer's playing it safe keeping any post with the word "backside" very short.
Hey flamer, you didn't really think I was saying that YOU were cheap did you? (Recall Boy has a different way of dealing with a check .PM for it.)
Sorry about the abbreviated post but it was too tempting and seems to have vapor locked BS.
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:11 AM
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Steve is getting married
Picture this....virgin walls, colored deep red, black, pink, and, unfortunately on occasion, white. Imagine this....99% of them have never been climbed. Consider this.....my friend Steve Chardon is about to get married and forever drop climbing as a pointless recreational activity.
Mission: Climb before Steve gets married.
Objective: Anything virgin, but since everything was, basically, virgin we could do whatever we wanted.
Place: Duh....
Date: What can I say? If I give the actual dates I will be attacked for having 'proven' that a certain thread contributor is 'right' or vindicated, further proving, of course, that I am a conspiratorial liar. But if I don't give the correct dates I'll be a liar. So either way, I am a liar. So....let's just say between 1950 and 2010 to be on the safe side.
(Poignant and meaningful aside: I'd be tempted to add here that there are three fundamental reasons for NOT providing dates. They are: 1) I don't much care, 2) I actually have a real job and real life that keeps me away from climbing, my gear, and my topos, about 99.8765% of the time...ergo I couldn't check the exact dates if I wanted, 3) I don't respond to sophomoric challenges. Again, I would be TEMPTED to add this aside, but I won't).
Rationale: None I can recall.
Steve flew into the Vegas airport. If we had known where to find them we probably could have found Largo and Lynn hanging out with the Uriosites. Ahhhhh.....ships passing in the night. Undoubtedly, we spent the night in Vegas and almost as certainly I dropped a wad I couldn't justify at the Blackjack tables. Undoubtedly, this was at the Silver Slipper, at the time the friendliest club on the strip where the odds were pretty good while guys in drag danced in the 'Boylesque' show. How did they get those tits?, I recall wondering. I also recall Steve had a 'surefire win' system for the roulette table. He didn't.
But there was still the bolt issue. We didn't have any. We needed some, bad. We also need pins....bad. You see, Steve and I learned to climb in that era where the sun shone every day, when men and women weren't judged by their money or their name, when Chouinard had only barely mass marketed the original pile jacket and not yet degraded himself into Patagucchi, when Harding probably still had a bit of his liver left....etc. You see, we learned to climb when ALL bolts and ALL pins were bad, something to be ashamed of, sort of like....well I don't want to mention it. Oh yeah, we KNEW how to put a bolt or piton in, but this was akin to tasting the forbidden fruit. Yeah....we had enough pins to get up the standard walls in the Valley, but as so much of that stuff was fixed anyway (e.g. rurp ladders on the Shield) we didn't have quite enough to do the route I REALLY had my eyes on......(shrill and cheezy organ music enters here....)......WAGES OF SIN on the not yet christened Forbidden Wall (remember Dangle, christening requires that you first CLIMB the wall before naming it...or is that too difficult to fathom?).
So we needed pins and bolts.
I recall it as if it were yesterday, or maybe the day before that. We ambled into what was Vegas' only climbing shop and none other than Randy Grandstaff stood behind the counter. I swear I heard, or perhaps just imagined because of the cheap booze hangover I was nursing from the Silver Slipper (how DID they get those tits?), that haunting flute-like refrain from the Good Bad and Ugly as Steve sauntered up to the glass case with all the latest Chouinard hexcentrics underneath.
'What might you boys be lookin' for?' said Randy...sizing us up as two greenhorns.
'We'd be lookin' for some climbin' gear mister.' said Steve, willing to play along to see what hand Randy might draw.
'You're not from these parts, are you?'
'No' said Steve, 'We learned to climb in one of them Yankee states...New Hampshire to be exact, home of the famous Old Fart of the Mountains'.
'Never heard of him' said Randy.
'Look' said Steve wishing to get down to the brass tacks, 'We need some bolts, and we need 'em bad, real bad...if you get my drift.'
'BOLTS!?' said/asked Randy, his lips curling and snarling at the same time. 'Whaddya want them for?' he seethed.
Steve was sensing he had caught a BIG one this time, sort of like Dangle trawling for big wall newbies from Salt Lake......
'Why, heck, we're gonna put ourselves in a few bolt ladders' said Steve, a smile rising across his face.
'No bolts!' shot back Randy.
'No bolts?' we asked.
'No, no bolts. You shouldn't use any bolts!'
'O.K., look, we're not climbing here...we're gonna up to Zion and do some new routes...in a place called Olevskyland' Steve replied.
'Well, heck, why didn't you say so in the first place?' Randy replied, beaming, apparently happy that we weren't going to bolt his precious Red Rocks.
Actually, that was just the jist of it. But Grandstaff didn't want to sell us any bolts and we pretty much had to tell him we'd like to speak to the shop owner to make the purchase. Suddenly, and sullenly, the bolt box appeared. But the truth is we were unsophisticated enough to believe that normal split bolts would work 'O.K.', so that's all we could get our hands on....but heck, we were happy enough for the moment.
The downside was we could only buy about 5 pins, none of which were RURPS. Having scouted out the soon-to-be 'Wages of Sin' line I was sure we would need those. So, somehow, I paid for pins somewhere and they were going to be shipped to us care of General Delivery in Springdale (hard to believe, huh?). So Steve and I rolled into Zion with bad bolts and a tiny arsenal of pitons, but not nearly enough to do Wages of Sin. To give ourselves a litte delay time we decided to bop into the Kolob, a long tale unto itself (more on that). But after our successful foray into the Kolob we returned to find STILL no pitons in the mail.
Luckily I had a fallback plan....you see on the Twin Brother I had spotted a killer buttress with a killer slitter right through the headwall. Looked awesome. So we went for that one first, instead of Wages of Sin.
Why did we do it? Because our pitons were all 'Lost in Transit'. Hence the name of the route on the Twin Brother.
more soon on the story of that ascent.....
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 5:06 PM
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Couldn't resist noting....
In reply to: And Dangle's ethic of creating fun lines for the masses is greatly appreciated.
Am I the only one that sees this as an oxymoron?
.In reply to: Heck doesn't take much, just clean the pins the right way, and don't go up when its wet
Oh..is THAT all it takes.. you been puttin too much in your pipe boy..
you ever heard of a drill bit?
Speaking of the masses, this is getting a bit too Orwellian for me. My advice: take two Soma's and call me in 1984.
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:09 PM
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And now gentle readers, it is time for a new show....
Dave's Daily Dangle Deconstruction
Brought to you by Rawl...maker of fine anchor fasteners, and by Dandy Dean's Kosher Klimbing shop in Springdale Utah. (Powder Milk biscuits was recently dropped as a sponsor folks....too hot in the kitchen if you know what I mean).
First...
In reply to: I mean really, Dave, isn’t there enough rock in southern Utah to go around? I promise us new kids will stay away from your precious Empty Pages and Wages of Sin; they’re all yours. I suppose it’s your prerogative to object to Ron’s routes opening the canyon to weekend warrior types like me, but it seems a bit duplicitous since you yourself fist climbed in Zion by repeating one of his lines.
You should re-read my earlier posts. I certainly have never denigrated Dangle's Touchstone, for example. An outstanding route as is, for another example, Iron Messiah. Prodigal, however, is another matter. Remember, I helped Dangle carry his ropes up to rappel preview upper Prodigal so I am not sinless. But my view remains that climbers should aspire to improve their skills rather than to seek out climbs that have been brought down to their level. It becomes too close to Euro-climbing. If such a route is promoted by someone as a '50 Classic' in a public forum this is sending a message, a POTENT message, to younger wall climbers that these types of routes are the apex of Zion climbing. I vehemently disagree. Has anyone counted the actual number of bolts on that route? Off the top of my head I would put it at comfortably over 80, this on a route that is barely 1000 feet tall.
This 'anything goes' attitude, actively fostered today in large part by climbing gyms and sport climbing, is like weeds you can't get rid of. All of you aspiring Zion climbers: please don't succumb to this mentality. It degrades the sport.
As for my routes being 'precious', thanks (though I note your sarcasm), but I am not possesive about my routes, nor would ever threaten climbers on my routes with a gun. I am not like Dangle: It is not my canyon, nor are they 'my' routes to own or control.
Deconstruction/translation continued:
In reply to: Soloing big new routes in Zion is more than just 2 or 3 more times as much work. It is also a challenge to the spirit. The soloist always does the routefinding. The soloist always gets the first pitch of the day without belaying from the ledge. The soloist always goes to clear the bag. The soloist always leads the crux.
Ron...I think Mohammed Ali said this more succintly 'I AM THE GREATEST'. Certainly, more powerful, direct, and less self-aggrandizing.
In reply to: Unaware of its history Dave soloed Monkeyfinger thinking he was the first to lead every pitch, and I know he tried to put up the Swiss-American , the Fang Wall, and the Apex Wall, and if I remember right also spent a day on the Silmaril alone. Perhaps having "pushed standards" and done "more walls" than anyone Dave will tell a story of one that he put up solo.
Again, this is Dangle at his finest. Textbook. Let's analyze this....
Has anyone ever heard me suggest I ever did a first wall ascent solo? Is there any written or promoted claim anywhere that I was the first to lead every pitch on Monkeyfinger? Fact is, I never have put up a wall solo. I started soloing what is now the Swiss-American in December of some year (long before it was climbed) but came down because, frankly, it was dark and lonely and depressing. Started rope soloing the route 'Hello Mary Lou' on the Angelino Wall (not the 'Apex' wall) and got halfway up. Problem there was that it was all outstanding free climbing and I had no way to free climb it on solo lead -- I felt I was degrading the route aiding it (I was). So I rounded up Bob Yoho and we freed all but the first and part of one of the upper pitches. OUTSTANDING route that never gets done. As to Lovelace and Silmaril, I never tried to rope solo those other than for the fact that my valiant partners in both cases wanted 'days off' to recover. I didn't.
But the implications are that I am nefariously 'unaware' (recurring conspiracy theme) and thus intentionally misleading, that I have tried and consistently failed at solo first ascents, and that I have been self-promotional. The reader should note that my ONLY reason for stating that I had put up more walls than Dangle was simply to point out the most obvious reason for his vendetta against myself in particular. He just can't STAND that simple fact and, worst of all, that he'll never catch up to me (insert shameless and goading gloating with snickering soundtrack here).
Also, another gem, in a single paragraph Dangle mis-applies names. You see, Dangle discovered every line and climb in Zion back in Jurassic times when the sands were being deposited. So he applies his own name 'Fang Wall' to 'Lovelace' (a wall and route he has never climbed) and 'Apex Wall' to another climb and wall he hasn't climbed. Clever, huh? Really, I don't mind much, but it is important for thread readers to be aware of his style in these matters and the blatant hipocrisy attendant in one who portrays himself as the defender of Zion Truth and Accuracy.
But the Hoover Vacuum of Logic award goes to....
In reply to: Perhaps the only good to come of this "slapfest" was the eventual Jones year "nondenial" and the final partial disclosure by Middendorf for the basis of statements. Previously approached more than a half dozen times he had remained closed lipped. Obviously the willingness to be forthright in accounts could have avoided great acrimony.
Sounds dark and sinister and black-helicopters-in-the-nightish, doesn't it? Translated loosely....this means something like 'I am an above-it-all sort of guy who was unwillingly forced to expose an historical conspiracy in the making that I at least partially got the protagonists to admit. None of this was my fault.'
I am not sure what thread Dangle was reading, but it certainly wasn't this one. You know, one reason I gave up pot smoking when I was 17 was I began to realize it was making me paranoid.
HAH!!!....there is that damned canyon shaking laugh again....could it mean.?....is that white dust I see slowly filtering in from the heavens?....is it really time for....possibly.....Drinkin Beer Are Ya??
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chairmanmeow
Feb 26, 2005, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: Speaking of the masses, this is getting a bit too Orwellian for me. My advice: take two Soma's and call me in 1984.
Soma was Huxley, not Orwell. Brave New World was published a decade or two before 1984, but who cares about names and dates, right?
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: ... Their happiness can be continued endlessly by taking the drug soma by making ... it is often compared with George Orwell's 1984
And so I did, or was the allusion too difficult?
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:58 PM
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Ed....
We've hit the 20K readership mark and the bonus payments will have to kick in fairly immediately or else Dangle and I will cease and desist...
Personally, I am worried about peaking too soon. With Pesci holding out for an Oscar snagging script, and Gibson balking at playing someone better looking than he (hey I can't help it!) we are on the verge of trying to negotiate residual terms on the downside of this....
Meanwhile, I am burned out. My creative staff went on strike last week, forcing me to produce my own sub-standard filler posts. Luckily, they returned last night just in time for a late save. Certainly, this adds drama, but at what cost?
Did the History Channel express any interest in this? I mean the Jewish-Gentile angle has got to have some traction. Are there any famous Islamic climbers who have done Touchstone or Prodigal that we could contact to get this thing a little more 3-dimensional (maybe along the lines of 9 virgins waiting in Heaven with freshly charged Bosch's if they are shot while nailing one of Ron's routes? Can we somehow link Ron to Israeli intelligence activities?) We've got the Mormon angle with Brian, but we are in negotiations on the tithing issue, so he is temporarily withdrawing.
(O.K......post....)
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