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jomal
Feb 24, 2005, 5:15 PM
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So I'm still quite a beginner, and I've found a new place to toprope. I think that the best way to climb multiple routes all day with one other person would be to hike to the top, set up the anchor, then both of us abseil down, and climb back up. The thing I'm unsure of is belaying from the top of the climb. The anchors are just double bolts, pretty close to the edge of the climbs, so I'm worried about getting pulled off in a fall...
I feel like the solution is quite simple, but I'm at a loss!
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 24, 2005, 5:34 PM
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Let me be the first to say "Get proper instruction from someone qualified" and " Do not try this based ONLY on what you read here."
Now that I got that out of the way, the answer is fairly simple. Attach an anchor to the bolts (anchor knowledge required here), and belay directly off the power point. Anchor yourself to the power point with a locking biner. If the climber falls, his/her weight will be on the anchor, not you.
Josh
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aklimerguy
Feb 24, 2005, 6:01 PM
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Since you're toproping, is it really quicker to belay from the top? The last person who climbs the route can change the anchor to another route.
The best WOULD be to get someone to teach you the ropes...
Climb safe.
Guillaume
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azrockclimber
Feb 24, 2005, 6:15 PM
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whoa..slow down here. this is so situational that you would have to answer about 50 questions in order to get a safe response..those other replys that you got didn't take into account a hundred things. basically, you need to buy john longs how to build an anchor book, talk to an experienced climber etc...I understand that you know how to set up top ropes but there are many more things that go into seconding up a person. the first response you got was correct however since you have never done it before you really need to do some reading about multi pitch climbing. The reason for that is because the belay type you are asking about is just like one you would set up on a multi pitch climb. Good luck and read up. it is actually a great book that any aspiring climber should read.
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dklco
Feb 24, 2005, 6:35 PM
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you would have to belay off the anchor using a gri gri or a munter hitch DO NOT USE AN ATC OR BELAY PLATE! because the way you will most likly be positioned you wont be able to lock off the rope in the case of a fall with an ATC. you should also get yourself anchored in as well
the best thing to do is take a class or find an experienced climber to show you how.
there is aslo a book called toproping by S. Peter Lewis.i think its a falcon guide book, that has good illistrations of 3 different basic ways to set up a top belay system, and tells you each ones advantages and disadvantages.
good luck
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jamaica
Feb 24, 2005, 6:55 PM
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I think I understand what you're getting at, what you want to do is minimize the time you have walking around back to the top of the cliff and you just want to stay at the top once you are done climbing a route so you can go set up another one. Cool. Just top out man and leave the belayer on the ground and set up your second route where ever it is and rap back down. Once you top out disassemble your top rope anchor and move it to another location, then rap back down to meet your buddy at the base of the climb, then climb and repeat.
Blueeyedclimber explained how to belay from the top perfectly also.
Jamaica 8^)
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markc
Feb 24, 2005, 7:13 PM
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Guillaume and Jamaica are suggesting what I've typically done. Make sure that the last climber of each route is comfortable rigging anchors. This climber tops out and breaks down the old anchor, shifts to the new line, and builds the new anchor. (This will be very simple if there are bolts at the top of each route.) The ground person can move your packs, move the tails of the rope over, etc. This should actually be faster than both climbers ascending to the top of the cliff, shifting the set-up, then rapping down.
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phatcat
Feb 24, 2005, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: Since you're toproping, is it really quicker to belay from the top? The last person who climbs the route can change the anchor to another route.
thats what i do. :)
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 24, 2005, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: you would have to belay off the anchor using a gri gri or a munter hitch DO NOT USE AN ATC OR BELAY PLATE! because the way you will most likly be positioned you wont be able to lock off the rope in the case of a fall with an ATC.
This isn't necessarily true, depending on what the top looks like and where you will be situated. If it is flat and you can sit, sometimes you can set up the anchor so that the power point is slightly in front of you and you can belay almost as if it is right off your harness. This is pretty mcuh standard practice at Otter Cliffs in Acadia, Maine.
Josh
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tweek
Feb 24, 2005, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: using a gri gri
I would not use a grigri either. You can use an atc or whatever if you redirect the bellay or attach yourself to the anchor but all of this should be explained by an experienced person (to ramble on like all the other people here about don't go off an die.)
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jomal
Feb 24, 2005, 9:08 PM
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I do have John Long's book, but he let me down this one time! I'm sure there's a a way to do it, but in the interest of safety I'm not going to mess with it. I think we'll just have the second move down to a new route, with the belayer staying at the bottom. That's a good idea, gracias!
EDIT: Rereading some posts. I have always been taught to NEVER belay directly off the anchor with anything but a Munter. I suppose I could do this as a solution, but I can also use an ATC? The bolts are right at the edge, and I could sit right behind them quite easily...
Before you get worried, I'm not gonna do this, it's all theoretical now for me!
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dklco
Feb 24, 2005, 9:24 PM
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The point was that if the anchor was say two bolts above and behind you where you have to be situated in front or slightly to the side of the anchor it is much safer to use a gri gri or a munter hitch when belaying directly off of the anchor.
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jimdavis
Feb 24, 2005, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: Thanks for all the suggestions. I do have John Long's book, but he let me down this one time! I'm sure there's a a way to do it, but in the interest of safety I'm not going to mess with it. I think we'll just have the second move down to a new route, with the belayer staying at the bottom. That's a good idea, gracias! EDIT: Rereading some posts. I have always been taught to NEVER belay directly off the anchor with anything but a Munter. I suppose I could do this as a solution, but I can also use an ATC? The bolts are right at the edge, and I could sit right behind them quite easily... Before you get worried, I'm not gonna do this, it's all theoretical now for me!
Play with it in a tree on the ground of something and get comfrotable with it, sit down with someone and have them explain it...ect.
Whoever told you to NEVER belay off an anchor with anything but a Munter...hasn't heard of autoblocking belay devices. GiGi, Reverso, B-52, TRE, GriGri, ect. That's what they're made for!
Check out the Petzl manuals for the Reverso or GriGri, or in their catalog in the back. Build your bomber anchor, attach yourself properly, and attach your autoblocking belay device, and practice; on the ground.
You'll pick it up.
I had a buddy once that had been climbing for about 3 years. He went out and picked up a Reverso one day and went climbing. He leads up a pitch, his second yells up to him, gets the "on-belay" command and starts climbing. He cleans the pitch, tops out and sees Nick, with the Petzl manual layed out on the ledge. He just figured it out on the fly; knew what was safe for everything else, and followed the instructions. Probably not the best way to do it, but noboby died.
Follow the instruction, don't do what your not comfortable with, and you'll be ok. Just get some practice in before hand.
Cheers,
Jim
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aikibujin
Feb 24, 2005, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: EDIT: Rereading some posts. I have always been taught to NEVER belay directly off the anchor with anything but a Munter. I suppose I could do this as a solution, but I can also use an ATC? The bolts are right at the edge, and I could sit right behind them quite easily... Before you get worried, I'm not gonna do this, it's all theoretical now for me!
Besides the munter hitch, you can also belay a second directly off the anchor using an autoblocking device such as: Trango B-52, Petzl Reverso, Mammut Matrix, TRE, Cassin GTC, Kong Gi Gi... and the list probably goes on. I've seen people belay off the anchor using the ATC, the belayer position themselves very close to the anchor and clip in with a locking biner, so it is almost like belaying off their harness... except when the second falls, the force is on the anchor, not the belayer. I think this is what blueeyedclimber was talking about. However, the belayer MUST be in a stance where it is impossible for the belayer to slip, loose balance, or otherwise fall into a position in which they cannot lock off the ATC.
I use a B-52 in its autoblocking mode if I really want to belay off the anchor.
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andrewscott
Feb 24, 2005, 10:41 PM
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In reply to: DO NOT USE AN ATC OR BELAY PLATE! because the way you will most likly be positioned you wont be able to lock off the rope in the case of a fall with an ATC.
If you put in a redirect at the anchor you can use an ATC. If you are just doing TR I wouldn't buy a gri gri.
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jimdavis
Feb 24, 2005, 10:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: DO NOT USE AN ATC OR BELAY PLATE! because the way you will most likly be positioned you wont be able to lock off the rope in the case of a fall with an ATC. If you put in a redirect at the anchor you can use an ATC. If you are just doing TR I wouldn't buy a gri gri.
Which then sucks to take slack in on. Redirect off the anchor from your harness if your sticking with and ATC, or do the Munter/ autoblock thing.
Ditto on not buying a GriGri, I made it 3 years without buying one, then I was given one. I wouldn't own one if I couldn't get it for atleast half price.
Cheers,
Jim
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reggrocket
Feb 25, 2005, 12:06 AM
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The petzl Reverso is my autoblocking device of choice, I've bought two. I droped my first one while putting my friend on belay, so I had to remeber in about what I read about the munter. I would like to say a few things about that knot: First it is important for everyclimber to know especially when they are moving their belay off of the ground. Secondly I would suggest only using it in an emergency type situation( ie when I droped my Reverso a few hundred feet and had no other belay device). The reason I wouldn't suggest using the munter regularly is that it twist the rope something nasty. When you use the munter too often your rope will become twisted and kinded all over so that when you belay of a device, like a Reverso, you'll have to be untiwsting rope to feed out to the leader while belaying them. I'm sure other people have similar experiences with the munter. I guess the reason I wanted to say so much about it is becuase my partner for a while allways used a munter belaying the second and got me in the habit as well. So I guess you could say I'm a reformed munter user, and I want to spread the message about the hassle lurking behind the semingly simple alternative to a good belay device.
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srwings
Feb 25, 2005, 1:40 AM
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Funny you mention this. I asked the same question to myself last summer. My post assumes you have or will have proper training before trying this. Most of my top roping is in the Northern Virginia area and while bottom belays are much more common, being able to belay from the top is a useful skill to have. My buddy and I tried it at our local climbing area (Great Falls, VA) last summer and we were impressed with how many more routes we were able to knock out using the top belay method. Here are some notes I took from last summer:
Top belay pros:
-->You can climb longer routes since your rope doesn't double back at the anchor.
-->It's somewhat quicker to set up for top belays than for bottom belays.
-->If the approach is from the top the rap in can save you from tricky down climbs or long treks to the base.
-->You get to keep an eye on your TR anchors.
-->You don't have to drag all your gear to the base and typically there's more shade up top for the belayer.
-->When there's a significant weight difference between the climber and the belayer and you are not able establish a good bottom anchor for your belayer.
-->Typically with top belays the belayer is not part of the system so if there's a problem it's a lot easier to "escape the belay".
-->It's a hell of lot easier on the belayer's neck.
-->You don't feel nearly as guilty about "working" a route for 30 minutes because your belayer can sit or whatever.
Top belay cons:
-->Your belayer better know what the heck they are doing since you probably can't see them and they probably can't see you.
-->It can be harder to communicate.
-->For larger groups top belays don't seem to be as sociable.
-->It's harder to give beta or monitor the status of your climber unless you can lean over (anchored in, of course).
-->If your climber takes a fall it's harder on your rope unless you have a smooth rock or padding.
-->More opportunities to screw up and get hurt. For example- rapping down. Seems to me more climbers get killed rapping that they do climbing. Also, setting the anchor for a hanging belay (so that you can see the climber) also adds another opp to screw up.
-->You really need to know the route beforehand in order to get good rope placement over the route.
-->Most routes are not suited for top belays.
-->Assuming you aren't belaying off your harness you'll need to position your autolocking belay device so it doesn't get jammed against the rock when the rope is weighted.
To any multipitch climber this is old stuff but if all you do is TR then I hope you'll find it useful. Climb safe.
A picture is worth a thousand words so I posted some of my top belay anchors for you at
http://www.blackburn-tree.org/buzzardrock/topbelay/index.html
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jomal
Feb 25, 2005, 2:13 AM
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This is all very interesting!
So if I were to use an ATC directly off the anchor (don't fret though I won't!) I would have to be sitting either beside or with the anchor between my legs, with the ATC clipped in to the powerpoint close enough to me that I can lock it off (stop me if I'm missing something). Since any fall will load the anchor rather than me, should I clip in to the anchor myself? If so, with just a girth-hitched sling through my harness and a locker?
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aikibujin
Feb 25, 2005, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: I would have to be sitting either beside
In reply to: or with the anchor between my legs,
In reply to: should I clip in to the anchor myself?
In reply to: If so, with just a girth-hitched sling through my harness and a locker?
The DFU (Don't Fuck Up) factor in this method seems kind of high for most people. As an alternative, you can belay using an ATC directly off your harness, without a redirect. If you clip the belay biner through both the belay loop and whatever you're anchored in with - for example: the girth hitch on the sling if you use that to anchor yourself. If you keep the sling taut to the anchor, in case of a second's fall, the girth hitch should cinch tight, and the second's weight can be transferred directly to the anchor.
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jomal
Feb 25, 2005, 4:49 AM
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I thought I had it, but now I don't think I do. I think its just one of those things I would have to see to understand (and practice). One of the problems is the only time I've ever belayed (either a toprope or for a sport leader) the feeling side of the rope has been headed up from my hand. Belaying from above (rather directly from the anchor with an autoblock or "redirected") would involve a different hand position and motion than what I'm used to. Or so I assume. It's tricky to describe without seeing it, and Freedom doesn't describe it very well.
But if anyones still willing to wade through this, I'll keep on. I find climbing systems really interesting...
So if I were standing above the anchor belaying directly from the anchor, wouldn't the force be on me? For an anchor on two bolts I would just use two slings attached to a locker on each hanger, with the rope running through either two non-locking (opposite, opposed, etc.) or one locking. So since my standing would lift the anchor up to my wasit, wouldn't a fall simply slam me back down towards the bolts until the slings caught the weight? I feel like there's something I'm missing here.
The way I was conceiving it was sitting beside the anchor (two bolts on the ledge above the route) with my legs dangling over the edge. The ATC was clipped into the power point with a normal pear, hanging over the edge, but close enough I could still feed rope through and pull back on the brake end in the event of a fall. Then tie myself in to the anchor with a short sling or two short slings, If I were to slip. The reason I asked about tying in is because in what I just described it didn't seem like there were any forces to jerk me forward.
Hmm, I'm trying to describe this: so the forces would run along an axis from the anchor's power point, to the atc, and directly down to the climber, with me simply holding the rope in the brake position.
I'm not sure if this makes any sense, so maybe try to set me straight without even worrying about my poorly-conceived ideas! And once again, just to ward off any concerns, I'm not gonna do this until I can get someone to show me how. So don't worry, or fret, or nail-bite, or give me a STFU n00b!!!1111 :wink:
EDIT: Clarification question. When you mention what hand I belay with (and I assume I belay right-handed), you mean what hand is holding the brake end right?
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phugganut
Feb 25, 2005, 6:16 AM
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To further the hijack...
Man I've caught many top-rope falls with an ATC directly off of the power point. Have any of those sayinf otherwise ever tried it? We're talking about TR not a lead fall. To the OP: If you want a more specialized belay device then that's cool, but it's not necessary.
Note: I personally use a reverso.
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jomal
Feb 25, 2005, 7:42 AM
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In reply to: We're talking about TR not a lead fall.
That's what I was thinking, but as I said I don't know from experience.
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ufdigga
Feb 25, 2005, 7:49 AM
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In reply to: A picture is worth a thousand words so I posted some of my top belay anchors for you at http://www.blackburn-tree.org/buzzardrock/topbelay/index.html |
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