|
10ftdrp
Mar 1, 2005, 3:18 AM
Post #1 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2004
Posts: 107
|
I followed my first trad route a couple weeks ago. as i was ascending i really didnt see any big deal until i topped out (It was a 1 pitch 5.5). Gear was hanging off of me everywhere. it took my partner and i 10 minutes just to get everything in a position so i could rappel. I am pretty sure on a multipitch trad route this would be disasterous. Any suggestions? How do you keep this from happening?
|
|
|
|
|
climbinginchico
Mar 1, 2005, 3:26 AM
Post #2 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 3032
|
Before the climb decide on a racking system that both of you will use for the climb, and stick to it.
What I mean is, something similar for both of you: Trad draws in front, cams arranged smaller to larger, nuts racked behind cams, etc. Or maybe you want your slings over the shoulder, smaller cams on the left, and nuts/big cams on the right. Or something else.
Keep it consistent, and then you will both know where a certain piece is when you need it. And, it makes transferring the gear easier at belays.
|
|
|
|
|
irockclimbtoo
Mar 1, 2005, 3:38 AM
Post #3 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2004
Posts: 309
|
ab
|
|
|
|
|
rockmaninoff
Mar 1, 2005, 3:49 AM
Post #4 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 43
|
Fortunately for me, my buddy likes the way I rack and we both climb with it organized the same way. As one of us cleans, we attempt to "reassemble" the rack on a sling over our shoulder. When we reach the belay, it's just clip-clip-clip-clip, biggest to smallest.
Reorganizing can take a lot of time and it's good to get a system down and climb with the same buddy.
Check the posts for more ideas on how to rack.
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Mar 1, 2005, 3:55 AM
Post #5 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
I'm reading this post a little different (maybe I'm wrong) but do you mean to ask how you quickly arrange your gear so one side is clear enough to allow you to abseil?
It seems like your problem is not in what order the gear is, but on what side. Am I right or barking up completely the wrong tree?
If right, you could just use shoulder slings (if you have that much gear) and change the orientation (ie hanging to the left for RH abseil) if the gear is still getting in your way.
Also clipping your gear to sewn slings (worn bandolier style) as you prepare to descend is pretty quick.
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Mar 1, 2005, 4:03 AM
Post #6 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
I forgot to mention, when multi-pitching you tidy as you go, so the time thing doesn't really compound.
And 10 minutes is not really all that much time for this sort of activity, especially when at least one of you is new to the concept of re-racking.
Seriously, if 10 minutes is going to make the difference between life and death you have made bigger mistakes than the way you've racked your gear.
Don't sweat it :)
|
|
|
|
|
nrvna963
Mar 1, 2005, 4:15 AM
Post #7 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 156
|
It’s pretty simple, just have a certain place for each piece of gear, memorize it, and stick with it. While you’re cleaning just place the pieces where they belong, just like clean-up in preschool. This at least works for a lot of multi-pitch trad climbs.
|
|
|
|
|
warrior_prong
Mar 1, 2005, 8:20 AM
Post #8 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 39
|
We normally clean onto a shoulder sling. Just clipping everything to it randomly. Then if the second is leading through, the previous leader clips the necessary parts of the rack to whatever attaches the second to the belay. Then the second racks onto his harness and gets going.
This is not overly quick. But we hate gear slings so it works pretty well if we don't hang about. Clipping it to the whatever running from the new leader to the belay means you don't have lots of gear being passed over individually ready to be dropped....
If one leader leads all pitches, then the second still cleans onto a shoulder sling, then when at the belay, the positions are switched ready for the leader to lead again. Second puts him on belay then passes over the sling of gear. Leader reracks while second re-flakes the ropes to put the leader back on top. Then we're off again. All very quick when you and partner are used to each other.
I have a good climbing buddy who likes to clean onto the floor. He's cleaned more than half a dozen bits of gear onto the floor. Wanker. Once the floor was the ocean and the gear was a cam. handy.
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Mar 1, 2005, 12:12 PM
Post #9 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
In reply to: I have a good climbing buddy who likes to clean onto the floor. He's cleaned more than half a dozen bits of gear onto the floor. Wanker. Once the floor was the ocean and the gear was a cam. handy.
:lol: :cry: :lol:
Don't know what to do, funny 'cos it's not me, but sad, soo sad.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Mar 1, 2005, 12:34 PM
Post #10 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
For longer routes, belay switch-overs are important. Someone suggested 10 minutes is no big deal. Yet if you did manage it in 10 minutes I would be very surprised. 20 is more likely and 30 is common enough for noobs.
An extra 10 minutes at each belay over the course of a 10 pitch route could mean the difference between dinner at Mel's or a cold night out. As a principle you should aim to have the leader starting up the next pitch in less than 10 minutes from when the 2nd anchors into the belay. 5 minutes really, but I'm cutting you some slack.
When following I no longer worry too much about organizing gear. I just clip it to my harness or a runner over the shoulder. If its really hard climbing I will just clean the piece and let it hang from the rope till I get to a stance, then put it on my harness just to get it out of the way.
We use gear slings religiously. If you ever get into multipitch you will be well advised to use them too. Racking to the harness is slower and for OW's and chimneys a detriment to climbing.
Clean a piece before unclipping it from the rope. That way if you drop it you don't lose it. Cam - pull it from the crack and clip the cam biner to your harness. Then unclip the biner from the rope and let go. Resume climbing. Nuts... ditto. If there are draws or runners on the piece leave it hang, don't seperate it from the piece.
When the 2nd anchors in, IMMEDIATELY start transferring gear back to the leader. No lollygagging, or discussing the blow by blow of the previous pitch. No rubber necking the next pitch or snacking or drinking a beer. NO!
Get the lead rack ready FIRST THING. Have the leader hold the rack out and have the 2nd place the pieces directly onto the rack, so only one person is touching them (less likely to drop, 50% less handling at each belay).
For rapping I prefer all the gear to be on the opposite side from my brake hand. Most of my partners don't seem to care much about this, but I don't like gear on my brake side when rapping.
As others have said, all this is a waste if you don't have a like minded partner. You should agree on a racking system and stick to it. There will be times when you and your partner won't see eye to eye on preferred method... maybe she's a harness racker and you're a rack man. Maybe she wears the rack on the left side when leading and you the right. I suggest that one of you should bend (but I don't bend on the rack side... I wear it on the right and even if it means switching the order of the rack every time or wearing it gate out instead of gate in, I will do so, I hate left side racking).
THINK about efficiency... and practice it. Efficiency is the one of the bedrock keys of climbing (and life if you think about it). The EASIEST way is often the BEST way... but not always of course.
And discuss this with your partners before you leave the ground.
Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Mar 1, 2005, 2:17 PM
Post #11 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Yet another trophy for dingus. However, I disagree that racking on a sling is better for chimneys and off-widths. By far, the best way to rack for a chimney or offwidth is to rack for the finger crack next to it, instead. :P
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Mar 1, 2005, 2:47 PM
Post #12 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
One thing inherent in what Dingus does - you have to know how your partner racks.
I always look at how my partners organize their gear, and make sure that I help re-rack it the same way. If I don't know how they rack a certain piece, I hand it to them & let them rack it. But, I try & do this so that it is as efficient as possible.
Big thing: look at how they organize their stuff. One piece per biner or multiples? Draws doubled or tripled?
Don't worry about it when cleaning the pitch, but do pay attention when handing / putting it back.
|
|
|
|
|
buckyllama
Mar 1, 2005, 2:58 PM
Post #13 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 314
|
Dingus is right on as usual.
I'd add a few things tho:
Even if you don't rack to a sling, his advice still holds. You can use an intermediate sling to rack to that the leader pulls gear from, or you can rack most stuff directly to their harness.
Clip the sling to the anchors somewhere instead of holding it. It's even more secure and then the leader can help with the racking.
BOTH of you should be pulling gear off the second's harness and racking it.
Even though it increases handleing, it can be more efficient for the leader to rack the pro, and the second to manage the slings/trad draws, etc. It just depends on how you rack. I'll often have my second pull off a sling, hold the pro end biner open for me to grab the nut/cam/whatever and then re-rack the draw while I rack the pro. I've never dropped anything this way, but YMMV. (I prefer trad-draws to over the shoulder sings so there is more re-work to do)
I totally agree that organizing as you go is useless. You are going to organize in either case. And it's MUCH easier and faster to do ti where you are reasonably comfortable and have both hands free than clinging to the rock. Organizing as you go will save you maybe a minute or two at the belay, but take 10+ minutes longer to climb. Not good time or energy management.
It is always worth it to spend 5 extra minutes setting up a neat and clean belay than it is to hurry and have a mess when the second gets there. It's easy to burn 30 minutes reworking anchors, reflaking ropes, etc because you didn't think through everything when you got there. (this is not strictly related... but is such a common problem I figured I'd add it)
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Mar 2, 2005, 4:26 AM
Post #14 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
In reply to: By far, the best way to rack for a chimney or offwidth is to rack for the finger crack next to it, instead. :P
:lol:
I say the best way to rack for an offwidth is to just rack off with your tail between your legs.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 2, 2005, 6:33 PM
Post #15 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: Seriously, if 10 minutes is going to make the difference between life and death you have made bigger mistakes than the way you've racked your gear.
10 minutes per changeover on a 20 pitch climb = 200 minutes = over 3 hours = unplanned bivy.
Changeover should take less than 45 seconds on big trad free climbs.
I prefer shoulder sling for leader and second. Re-rack and organize whenever you are at a rest stance on a pitch, catching your breath and preparing for the next hard section. When the second arrives at the belay, whichever sling has the majority of the gear becomes the new lead sling = less pieces to transfer, less time spent and fewer pieces to unclip and clip. One person does the transfer so that you are not handing pieces to each other = less chance of dropping a critical piece.
Admittedly, not a big deal on a single pitch climb. But single pitch climbs are practice for 5-pitch climbs are practice for 15-pitch climbs are practice for 25-pitch climbs.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Mar 2, 2005, 7:08 PM
Post #16 of 16
(4065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
In reply to: In reply to: By far, the best way to rack for a chimney or offwidth is to rack for the finger crack next to it, instead. :P :lol: I say the best way to rack for an offwidth is to just rack off with your tail between your legs.
Pansies.
Brutus and Dingus have their systems dialed. Nothin' more to be said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
