|
|
|
|
tchamber
Mar 9, 2005, 8:12 PM
Post #1 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 320
|
Alright, so I've been leading multipitch trad for a while now, and I'm trying to get a good system going between my partner and I. He's been climbing for 10 years, but hasn't really ventured into the realm of streamlining the transitions at the belay stance. In my research I've been learning how to belay directly off the anchor instead of off my harness through the anchor, how to setup autoblock on a reverso, and generally how to have everything ready to go for the second when he arrives at the belay. Now here's the question:
In some of the pictures/videos I've seen, the leader builds the anchor with 2 lockers in the power point, and sometimes just 1. I've always used 2 and was suprised to see AMGA level 2 certified guides using 1. Is one locker sufficient for your power point? John Long says in how to rock climb to always use 2...
Question 2: I also saw a guide who didn't like to clip his safety, and the belay device and everything else into the power point, so he recommended clipping one large locker into the power point and then clipping into that. However, all of the books I have seem to frown upon clipping biner to biner without a runner. (because the twisting can dick them up) So is this practice okay with lockers because they can't unclip or what?
I'm really trying to do dilligent research with improving our system, but I really don't want to shave 5-10 minutes off each transition if it's going to result in safety issues.
Thanks for your opinions guys, I'd espicially like to hear from the more experienced (vegastradguy, curt, dingus, etc), but all input is welcomed.
|
|
|
|
|
hosh
Mar 9, 2005, 8:20 PM
Post #2 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 1662
|
I'm no expert, but I think 2 lockers would be ideal. I would also be interested in hearing people's input on this issue as well.
Hosh.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Mar 9, 2005, 8:36 PM
Post #3 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
I use one locker on the powerpoint, and clove hitch into it with the rope. When both people are at the anchor, the second adds a locker and cloves into that.
I might clip in separately if the one locker isn't in a great spot for me to see, or if it is in near rock features or cluttered in the belay. But most of the time, one locker.
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Mar 9, 2005, 8:38 PM
Post #4 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
not to be a punk-but two lockers for what?
-if its two lockers, both of which are used to clip yourself into the powerpoint, well thats clearly bunk and uncessary. i think that you should need no more than two lockers at the powerpoint for straight forward two person trad multipitch, and can't think of a great way of doing things with only one
-what i would recomend, if you really are looking to use the reverso in autoblock mode:
make your anchor and attach yourself to the powerpoint with your rope clovehitched into the powerpoint with a locker
attach the reverso to the powerpoint and belay. end of story.
if you are going to belay of your waist (why would you? use that time to rest, relax, snag some treats and some water, use the reverso!), then still belay through a locker (other than the one you are attached to) through the powerpoint. that way when the second gets up, he just has to finish the clovehitch on the biner already on the anchor (learn to tie a one-handed clove hitch). that way he is automatically off belay. i think this is the best way to do it if you are no belaying off a reverso and not using a muenter.
third option-if you are willing to use a muenter (really only for a single rope, but two can work), then belay with a meunter right off the anchor, and its even easier to turn that muenter into a clovehitch to take the second off belay.
either way, you should need no more more than, and can't ever be comfortable with less than, two lockers at the power point.
and not sure about the amga guide-as one the above are the systems i use and they are all a)within amga standards, and b) utilizing two lockers.
|
|
|
|
|
edge
Mar 9, 2005, 8:42 PM
Post #5 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
|
I always use one, or occasionally two non-lockers with gates opposite and opposed.
|
|
|
|
|
jackhammer
Mar 9, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #6 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2004
Posts: 255
|
In reply to: I always use one, or occasionally two non-lockers with gates opposite and opposed.
Agreed...
|
|
|
|
|
tchamber
Mar 9, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #7 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 320
|
Let me clarify a little bit what this guide does:
1. Clip 1 Locker (we'll call "biner A") into the power point.
2. Clip his safty line biner ("biner B") into the power point biner ("biner A").
3. Clip belay device ("biner C") into "biner A"
So biners B and C are clipped into biner A. He belays directly off of one locker (biner C). He uses biner A because when the second weights the rope, you can still clip into / out of biner A, wheras the power point would collapse under weight.
Is it okay to clip lockers into lockers?
I've resolved that it's okay to belay off of one locker through the power point, but if you are belaying off of your harness, should you be redirecting through 2 lockers (as you would a TR)?
Edit: Also I just realized that having two potentially weighted lockers clipped in to "biner A" would result in some force being applied away from the spine, which is bad right? (but it comes with a free frogurt... that's good...)
|
|
|
|
|
rangertau
Mar 9, 2005, 8:55 PM
Post #8 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2003
Posts: 50
|
One locker = two biners opposite and opposed. As long as the lockers are maintained, i.e. under observation.
A locker w/ 24kn strength is plenty considering that the anchor, when bringing up a second, is basically a top rope anchor. If belaying a leader, other components of the system (i.e. rope, harness, protection, cordelette, brain, climber's back, etc.) will often fail before the locker if it is in good working condition and correctly loaded. I almost alway use only one locker on the power point (or shelf). Trying to streamline things and reduce the gear causes this. I hate rats nests at belays! Of course, one should always be aware of the inherent risks when one starts reducing gear.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Mar 9, 2005, 8:56 PM
Post #9 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Lately, I've started using two. I clip one to the power point and clove hitch my rope to it. Then, I clip a second to the power point and clip into it with a figure-8 on a bight. I know my first biner isn't going to fail; but I still feel more comfortable that way. Peace of mind counts for a lot, I suppose.
If we were at a belay together and you clipped in with one biner and a clove hitch, I wouldn't bitch you out about it. I'd expect the same respect.
Regarding clipping everything and everybody into one master-point biner... not a chance.
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Mar 9, 2005, 9:05 PM
Post #10 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
tchamber: [some force being applied away from the spine, which is bad right? (but it comes with a free frogurt... that's good...)
But the frogurt also applies a force away from the spine...that's bad
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Mar 9, 2005, 9:10 PM
Post #11 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
i really can't see a good reason for clipping multi biners into a powerpoint biner. no reason to take that chance!
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Mar 9, 2005, 9:21 PM
Post #12 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
My SOP is to clove into a single biner at the powerpoint (often this is a locker), and clip an 8-on-a-bight with a bit of slack in the system into one of the biners already in use in the anchor (for instance, the biner that connects my best cam to the cordalette). This system preserves redundancy by virtue of utilizing 2 independent biners, without cluttering the powerpoint.
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Mar 9, 2005, 9:27 PM
Post #13 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: Is it okay to clip lockers into lockers?
It seems (to me, at least) that what you have observed is how this particular fellow deals with a "crowded" anchor. With two or three clients, it may be a very valid way of doing things.
|
|
|
|
|
kubi
Mar 9, 2005, 9:45 PM
Post #14 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 815
|
In reply to: tchamber: [some force being applied away from the spine, which is bad right? (but it comes with a free frogurt... that's good...) But the frogurt also applies a force away from the spine...that's bad
but the frogurt comes with granola crumblies to sprinkle on top...that's good
|
|
|
|
|
cchildre
Mar 9, 2005, 10:03 PM
Post #15 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671
|
The two lockers in a row is acceptable but a little conspicious. Belay off the power point with the Reverso, the best way to bring a 2nd, and clip yourself into the deck. When your 2nd arrives he can get himself into the deck. If your swapping leads take your 2nds device, unless he has a reverso as well, setup for belay and breakdown the autoblock and send him on his way with the Reverso. Can make for a quick changeover. Read the falcon guide on speed climbing, it rules, and it not about rocketing up the wall, it is more about shaving time off of setup, changeover, and breakdown to allow you to climb more and fumble with gear less. I bet we saved 10 hours of climbing at Potrero this winter the 4 days we climbed there using techniques discussed in the book.
|
|
|
|
|
tchamber
Mar 9, 2005, 10:16 PM
Post #16 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 320
|
cchildre-
That is the setup I think will end up being ideal. I just don't really like the idea of clipping biners directly into each other, and with a group of two or three, I don't think it is too bad to use the powerpoint directly, particularly if I'm utilizing the shelf of the knot for my backup. I'll be sure to pick up the speed climbing book, it sounds like it covers a lot of the techniques I'm learning, but I always like to have multiple opinions and what is safe and efficient. Thanks guys!
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 10, 2005, 12:07 AM
Post #17 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: My SOP is to clove into a single biner at the powerpoint (often this is a locker), and clip an 8-on-a-bight with a bit of slack in the system into one of the biners already in use in the anchor (for instance, the biner that connects my best cam to the cordalette). This system preserves redundancy by virtue of utilizing 2 independent biners, without cluttering the powerpoint.
Crotch, you took the words right out of my post. In addition, this system does not use extra carabiners that are better saved for the next lead and/or next belay anchor.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
eyecannon
Mar 10, 2005, 12:45 AM
Post #18 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 4, 2004
Posts: 517
|
I use 1 locker for the reverso directly to the powerpoint, and another locker and sling for me either at the powerpoint or on the shelf of the knot. From what I gather, a single biner is not ever going to break unless you load it on an edge.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 10, 2005, 12:55 AM
Post #19 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: From what I gather, a single biner is not ever going to break unless you load it on an edge.
Or if loaded with the gate open. Or...
Numerous instances of fatalities where one locker failed. Generally because the wrong carabiner was unclipped in a complicated belay. Nutcracker was the most recent, as I recall.
Redundancy is never necessary. until something goes wrong.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
tchamber
Mar 10, 2005, 1:04 AM
Post #20 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 320
|
Brutus-
Your opinions intrigue me, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
But seriousely, what do you do to increase redundancy in the system?
Is there a method you are using to backup the belay biner, or are you belaying from your harness through the anchor?
And if you're belaying off your harness, isn't that only one locking biner, so wouldn't that be the same as the singer locker you are using to belay off of the anchor?
I'd be interested in knowing what your system is.
|
|
|
|
|
gunksgoer
Mar 10, 2005, 1:30 AM
Post #21 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 1290
|
In reply to: The two lockers in a row is acceptable but a little conspicious. Belay off the power point with the Reverso, the best way to bring a 2nd, and clip yourself into the deck. When your 2nd arrives he can get himself into the deck. If your swapping leads take your 2nds device, unless he has a reverso as well, setup for belay and breakdown the autoblock and send him on his way with the Reverso. Can make for a quick changeover.
My partner and i do this, and it works like a charm. saves a good 5 minutes on belay changeovers, wich over a day can add up to enough time for another pitch. :D This is probably the most efficient way to do changeovers, and im glad my partner showed it to me, after the steps mentioned above, all thats left to do is hand over the rack, and then the leaders on their way.
|
|
|
|
|
mtman
Mar 10, 2005, 1:35 AM
Post #22 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2003
Posts: 229
|
i would think that cliping to one powerpoint biner with other biners would increase the chance that it will get cross loaded and that is bad
is this true
mtman
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 10, 2005, 1:52 AM
Post #23 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: But seriousely, what do you do to increase redundancy in the system? Is there a method you are using to backup the belay biner, or are you belaying from your harness through the anchor?
Actually, I used to use two lockers for a belay carabiner. I finally gave that system up when I got into ice climbing, where the difficulty in operating the system with gloves became a liability. I only use it these days when belaying with very skinny ropes.
I don't worry so much about someone accidentally unclipping the belay carabiner, as it is under my immediate control during the entire belay operation. Clip-ins to an anchor, however, are a different story, especially in very complicated belays. More than once I have seen non-locker gates forced open by loading of a sling across the gate. And, more than once, I have seen the wrong locking carabiner get unclipped.
In reply to: And if you're belaying off your harness, isn't that only one locking biner, so wouldn't that be the same as the singer locker you are using to belay off of the anchor?
Yes, it is the same. And, lack of redundancy at the belay carabiner is an issue of concern. Due to this, I do what I can to make sure it is as fail-proof as is reasonably possible: I use an autolocking carabiner, having seen screwgates unlocked inadvertently too many times for comfort. At the first sign of stickiness, the carabiner is either lubricated or retired to other duties. I haven't yet added that fancy anti-crossloading system to my belay yet, but am considering it. I also add procedural redundancy: When I place my partner on belay, I check the setup. Then my partner checks the setup. If my partner has just tied in, she checks her knot and harness, and I check her knot and harness.
In reply to: I'd be interested in knowing what your system is.
As other have pointed out when this dead horse has been beaten before, we don't have redundancy for redundancy's sake, we have redundancy for the sake of safety. Safety is the bottom line. But in any scenario where, if a single point fails, we die, and that single point is subject to unusual conditions or conditions more likely to cause failure of that point, it makes sense to either add redundancy to that point or somehow mitigate the hazard: double ropes in ice and alpine climbing; padding the edge that rope passes over; double or even triple checking the belay or rappel setup if some new or unusual method or condition is being dealt with -- whether it is a different kind of knot to connect two rappel ropes, or whether a partner has just been injured at the base of a climb and we are getting ready to rappel to assist.
I mention these last two examples from my direct experience, when a final check of a system (which I had previously checked) revealed a fatal flaw. I make mistakes. Redundancy, be it of procedural or equipment nature, is one of the ways I protect myself, and my partner, from the consequences of those mistakes.
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Mar 10, 2005, 2:17 AM
Post #24 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
I find it really strange that everyone in this thread seems to emphasize belaying the follower in a multipitch belay scenario. Numerous people describe how to belay a second. Nobody mentions belaying a leader.
That is only one of the strange things about this thread. One of the others is the implicit assupmtion of a cordelette type anchor.
Rockclimbing requires a certain level of awareness in order to stay alive. The level of awareness displayed in many of the posts on this site leave a lot to be desired.
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Mar 10, 2005, 2:26 AM
Post #25 of 62
(6692 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
In reply to: That is only one of the strange things about this thread. One of the others is the implicit assupmtion of a cordelette type anchor.
The OP was asking about ways to anchor into a system that has a powerpoint. If it bothers you that most people new to this stuff use cordelette type equalization for anchors, that's another thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
