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tradman
Mar 22, 2005, 5:13 PM
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You're still missing the point:
There is historical support for what the Bible says about Christ's life. There isn't historical support for the view that he didn't exist.
I'm not disagreeing because I'm bigoted, I'm disagreeing because the proof convinces me.
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vivalargo
Mar 22, 2005, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: You're still missing the point: There is historical support for what the Bible says about Christ's life. There isn't historical support for the view that he didn't exist. I'm not disagreeing because I'm bigoted, I'm disagreeing because the proof convinces me.
Tradman--
Focus. Ask a question. Any question. Don't make me lose that bet.
JL
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tradman
Mar 22, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Questions about Jesus' life:
Judas
Why did he pick Judas to betray him? Given that Judas was predestined to betray Jesus, wasn't it unfair? Did Judas repent afterwards?
Pilate
Why did Pilate have Christ crucified? He tried lots of ruses to avoid it, but ultimately he had no real need to bow to the Pharisee's wishes. He could quite easily have told them to get lost, and had the military resources to back his decision.
Joseph
What happened to his adoptive father? He's not mentioned after his birth in bethlehem. What effect would that have had on Jesus growing up?
These are only a few of the questions I have, and so little time to go into them all.
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dingus
Mar 22, 2005, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: I mean, this is getting to the point I am going to call troll.
Eureka!
DMT
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unabonger
Mar 22, 2005, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: These are only a few of the questions I have, and so little time to go into them all.
Well, it would certainly cut into your post bumping time. But I don't think that's a bad thing.
I have an honest question, too: Are you drunk?
UB
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vivalargo
Mar 22, 2005, 5:30 PM
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Good effort, Tradman, and great questions. Perhaps someone in this thread would take a crack at them, since to some extent we're all guessing here, as we must do with any and all history that's 2,000 years old.
Those qustions have been exhaustively discussed by theologians that I studied 20 years ago, but I simply don't remember enough to supply useful discourse. I seem to remember Karl Barth being especially acute on those questins.
JL
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angry
Mar 22, 2005, 5:51 PM
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I generally only talk shit about how cool I am. Mostly because I am highly qualified to post on the subject. However, I felt I needed to post something.
If a cigarette company or research company funded by tobacco came out with pages and pages of research that said cigarettes do not cause cancer, would you believe them?
How then, do you believe the writings of Christians, when they say something happened the way it did?
Both situations are about money and control, I see no difference aside from 2000 years of reinforcement and editing.
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angelaa
Mar 22, 2005, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: You're still missing the point: There is historical support for what the Bible says about Christ's life. There isn't historical support for the view that he didn't exist. I'm not disagreeing because I'm bigoted, I'm disagreeing because the proof convinces me.
I really think you're the one missing the point Tradman. . . .
It doesn't seem to me that they are asking for proof he existed, but instead documentation (non biblical) that backs up the bibles story.
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bumblie
Mar 22, 2005, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: I generally only talk s--- about how cool I am. Mostly because I am highly qualified to post on the subject. However, I felt I needed to post something. If a cigarette company or research company funded by tobacco came out with pages and pages of research that said cigarettes do not cause cancer, would you believe them? How then, do you believe the writings of Christians, when they say something happened the way it did? Both situations are about money and control, I see no difference aside from 2000 years of reinforcement and editing.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Be careful about which boat you rock. :wink:
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tradman
Mar 22, 2005, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: I really think you're the one missing the point Tradman. . . . It doesn't seem to me that they are asking for proof he existed, but instead documentation (non biblical) that backs up the bibles story.
Missing the point how?
I provided 9 non-biblical references that do just that on the first page of this thread.
:?
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agape
Mar 22, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Hey guys, I see that there are a lot of questions in the air right now, but I will try to touch on some. I am not a Bible scholar, but it is my faith, so I will try. First, I need to say that the Bible is based on faith, it always has been, always will be. No amount of proof we cause everyone to belive. There were those who saw Jesus, touched Jesus(I say this with faith that the bibles acounts are true)and still did not believe that he was Christ. Also, it has been gernerally accepted that Jesus was a real person by most professionals(though I hate that term), and that he was crucified. The base that conclusion on some of the documents that some of you have mentioned and others as well. They( the anonymous "they") also DO consider the bible as some evidence. The gospell are acounts of what people saw. If it wasn't so "threatening", and was just an acount of some part of history(that wasn't recorded many other places) I think people wouldn't think twice. But because it contains certain things many people don't want to believe, they try and discredit it. I would say without a doubt, that a man by the name of Jesus was born, and that he told the world that he was the christ, and that they hated him for it and crucified him. The real faith comes when you believe what he said.
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dookie
Mar 22, 2005, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: I must admit though, it does surprise me that some people take issue with my being irritated by people attacking what I value - as if in some way it's not acceptable - or maybe it's not politically correct? - to be angry when what you hold dear is slandered and trashed.
I have no issues with you being irritated, I have issue with the way you represent it like a kindergardner. That and your inability to understand that often times those you are debating with are feeling attacked by you at the same time, attacking on what they value and believe. No one's slandering you or trashing your beliefs, or saying you shouldn't believe what you do. They were sincerely looking for references (outside of the bible) about Christ's existance and life. You always get all upset like your faith is being attacked, when you attack as well what more can you expect? Like I said, look at your very first response and how you felt the need to make a jab at the original poster, thinking that in some way there was ill intent for why he was looking for this information.
And likewise trad, why would a christian care that an atheist does not worship? Why not let them be happy not worshipping? ;) It goes both ways.
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agape
Mar 22, 2005, 6:24 PM
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[quote="dookie"]the bible also says a lot of other stuff we know not necessarily to be true. The Earth and heavens were created in 7 days. Science has shown that is most certainly not the case, but the bible says it's so right? Perhaps a day in the bible is really not a day at all. So therefore parts of the bible we take to be accurate historical accounts, and other parts not so? Makes it kind of confusing.
`
Your absoluty right.........if, you believe that the world was formed by millions of years of evolution. I know I am going to get all kinds of crud for this, even from other Christians, BUT, I still believe that the bible was was not being confusing when it says that the world was created in six days. I believe it was. And not just because it says so, but because I know there is more evidence for a yong earth than otherwise. So like I said, it is only confusing if you if you don't take the bible literaly.
agape
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cerikpete
Mar 22, 2005, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: but because I know there is more evidence for a yong earth than otherwise.
I'd like to hear you expound on this.
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vivalargo
Mar 22, 2005, 6:31 PM
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An interesting thing is to read these posts in terms of what you think people really and truly want.
JL
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dookie
Mar 22, 2005, 6:31 PM
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anytime trad ;)
do you really think an athiest cares that you do believe?!? They don't, trust me ;)
btw, I don't believe that he set out his topics as his own personal beliefs, necessarily, but what he was doing a paper on, no? You did indeed give him some great information, but couldn't leave it at that. I'm not saying don't defend you beliefs, I'm saying have some tact. You do this in every single thread that has to do with religion, and the funniest thing to me is that you defend so hard that it comes off as completely arrogant and pompous, which really doesn't do much for your argument to begin with ;) You know I've posted to you about this before, because I see your passion behind your mean words to others. Sometimes it's best to be the better person and not stoop to the level some have here, if you catch my drift. That was my point ;)
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agape
Mar 22, 2005, 6:40 PM
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cerikpete,
I knew I would get called on that one.
But I still hold to what I said. I am not sure where to start on that question, there are so many areas. Also, I am not going to change the subject on this thread, so I am not going to answer it right now(sorry). But I think what I will do instead, is post a new question, and make it clear to everyone that it is a debate. So, in the next couple of days, look for that post, and we can chat there. But please, hold me to it. I did say that I "know there is more evidence. That is a bold statement these days, so please, if I forget to post I new question, pm me and remind me, please. ALso, if there is a tone of arrogance in this reply, please,PLEASE look over it. I do not want to seem cocky AT ALL. It is just the same as before, I am no expert in this field, but it is what I believe, so I will not be ashammed to defend it, even if I get walked al over during the discusion. Anyway,
talk to you later,
agape
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dookie
Mar 22, 2005, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: but because I know there is more evidence for a yong earth than otherwise. I'd like to hear you expound on this. |
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robbovius
Mar 22, 2005, 7:02 PM
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Why, whenever I read thru these incessant and mind-numbingly unresolvable religious arguments, am I always reminded of troops of opposing chimps shreiking, thrashing the brush, and throwing shit at each other?
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dingus
Mar 22, 2005, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: Why, whenever I read thru these incessant and mind-numbingly unresolvable religious arguments, am I always reminded of troops of opposing chimps shreiking, thrashing the brush, and throwing s--- at each other?
Just remember robbovius, a chimp can rip you to shreds in a matter of seconds!
DMT
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