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punk
Jun 27, 2002, 12:13 AM
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I own the Ushba basic ascender while it’s the bomb for alpine I wondering how is it performing as suppose to the Petzl scroll to create ascending frog sys
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passthepitonspete
Jun 27, 2002, 12:33 AM
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Hmm, I can't tell how you set this thing up, so I can't really comment. Have a look:
For the Frog system, you want it to sit as low as it possibly can, and flat against your gut (which hopefully is flat, too, though there are notable exceptions...)
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apollodorus
Jun 27, 2002, 1:20 AM
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Does the basic do that rotation thing to lock onto the rope? That would lose a couple of inches for each move.
11-26-02 NO. The Basic is like a jumar without the handle. Great for the Frog.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-11-26 20:14 ]
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punk
Jun 27, 2002, 1:29 AM
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probably an inch maybe slightly more. The only thing I can kinda compare it to is GriGri lockup
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johnhenry
Jun 27, 2002, 3:41 AM
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I was considering this too with my ushba but I have not had time to try it yet.
There is no slippage as asked above.
I also have a Mini-traxion I was considering using. It is hands-down the best top-rope solo device I have ever used. If you need to snug up a little, a slight pull upwards on the rope below the device cinches it up beautifully.
I look forward to trying this in the Valley, next month!!!
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-06-30 20:42 ]
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johnhenry
Jun 30, 2002, 6:29 AM
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The above Ushba ascender also has a feature that may let it equal a grigri for cleaning. The lever on the left hand side of the above picture allows the cam-less ascender to be released under load.
I would be very interested if anyone has compared the two for preformance in this area.
This ascender can be slowely moved up or down, gripping only with a load. It is a beautiful piece of titanium. Check it out! John
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johnhenry
Jul 1, 2002, 3:41 AM
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I tried this yesterday.
The Ushba isnt going to be as good as the Croll for jugging free lines but it aint bad at all.
However, it is at least the equal and quite possibly better than a grigri for cleaning!!!
When passing a non-plum piece simply rotate the unit away from the body while pressing on the lever, which retracts inside the housing when under load.
A flick of the wrist keeps the unit climbing the rope and the lack of teeth/cam make it much more fall friendly than a traditional ascender.
The real boon compared with a grigri is that this titanium, russian, bad boy weighs about 1/6 of french unit.
A better way???
For alpine aid, I would say it really is!!!
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-06-30 20:45 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jul 1, 2002, 4:52 PM
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The benefit of the Grigri for cleaning on aid is that you can put slack into the rope while the Grigri is weighted.
Is this possible with the Ushba? Please explain.
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punk
Jul 1, 2002, 4:58 PM
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the Ushba rock for this. all you need to do is to lift the rope on the free side and off you go I always do this
the Ushba is really a great device
[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2002-07-01 10:10 ]
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theclimer
Jul 24, 2002, 5:18 PM
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More questions re: the Petzl Frog system
(Apologies for being somewhat offtopic re: this old thread - for some reason I can't post a New Topic on rc.com!!!)
Greetings, esteemed wall veterans,
I've been reading here the past several weeks about the Better Way of aid climbing, and am quite interested and intrigued by the entire process. I've decided that I'm going to attempt to "get into aid." I'm not ready yet to get on the sharp end of an aid pitch, but I'm keen to learn the methods employed when cleaning/seconding, and in so doing have gleaned that the Petzl Frog System of ascension is The Sh*t when it comes to jugging a free line.
So anyway, long story short, I've gotten myself a Petzl Croll to augment my already-purchased-yet-rarely-used Petzl Ascension handled ascenders. I understand its use as single piece of equipment, but have a couple of details I need clarification on in terms of using the Croll in a system as a whole.
For what it's worth, I've consulted the Petzl Frog System description on http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/orgt/caving/frog/frog.html.
First Question: Is it really necessary to purchase a Petzl Torse chest harness - http://www.karstsports.com/20305.html? In one of Dr. Piton's past posts I recall he advocates the use of just a sling or a bungee. How does this work? Is it probably worth the $11.00 to puchase the Torse, which is specifically designed to work in conjunction with the Croll?
Second Question: How does one atttach the whole mess to the front of a standard climber's sit harness? I use the Black Diamond Bod, at least for the time being. The pictures on the http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/orgt/caving/frog/frog.html link show a guy with a harness whose front seems tailor made to accept the locking D-Ring type carabiner on either side (the "top" and "bottom" of the "D"), with the Croll attached to the top of the carabiner (the curving side of the "D"). I don't see how this would work with my harness. The only thing I can think of is using a standard big locker fed through the front of my harness in the same fashion as I use for belaying/rappeling, and then connecting the Croll to that.
Third (And Final) Question: How does one atttach the whole mess to the back of a standard climber's sit harness? For that matter, how did the guy in http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/orgt/caving/frog/torseb.jpg connect the Torse to his harness?
Thanks in advance for any information you can provide for me. I apologize if this specific topic has been discussed here before - I didn't see anything in the archives that anwered these particular questions.
Sheesh - next thing you know I'll be asking all sorts of questions about how to clean a pitch with the GriGri or what the hell is up with leading aid climbs.
- Jeffro
[ This Message was edited by: theclimer on 2002-07-24 10:22 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 18, 2002, 12:10 AM
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Hmm, somehow missed this one.
To answer your questions:
Firstly, I would indeed recommend you buy a Petzl Torse chest harness, which is this thing here:
Hell, yeah, it's worth the $11, even if they are Merrican dollars. It is designed specifically for use with the Croll - there is no elasticity to it, and it is comfortable and compact.
To answer your second question, you attach the Croll ascender as LOW as possible on the front of your harness, using the smallest locker you can find. Not all harnesses are suitable. If it ain't LOW it ain't gonna WORK.
Get it??
Thirdly, there is a buckle on the back of the Torse to attach it to the middle of the back of your harness:
Good work, Jeffro, on the links above, incidentally.
Dr. Piton aficionados should be familiar with the hallmark post entitled
ASCENDING
In it, you will read everything you need to know about the Petzl Frog ascending system, as well as the Ropewalker system.
Note: In my ASCENDING post linked above, I have suggested several methods of holding up the Croll ascender.
Currently, I still use an elastic around my neck, but I intend to switch to the Petzl Torse just as soon as I can get my hands on one, because I believe it to be the Better Way.
I am Dr. Piton,
a caver who actually gets into the sunshine from time to time, and who emphatically knows jugging.
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philbox
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Oct 18, 2002, 12:32 AM
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Hey P I wouldn`t be in an all fired up hurry to change from the elastic croll holder upper just yet. I`ve experimented with non elastic hold ups and find them a pain. The elastic of course will hold the croll up in the correct orientation all the time no matter how much you bend and stretch whereas the semi rigid systems allows the croll to flop all over the place at times thus not allowing the rope to feed smoothly through at all times.
Of course not having tried the Torse chest harness I will no doubt stand to be corrected.
...Phil...
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passthepitonspete
Oct 18, 2002, 12:35 AM
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I haven't tried the Torse yet either, but I met a chap on the summit of El Cap a couple weeks ago who showed me his, and to me it appeared to be The Shit.
Anyone here actually used the thing??
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spike
Oct 18, 2002, 3:13 PM
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Hi Pete - good to read your posts.
I use my A5 Chest Harness to hold my croll in place. I place 1 carabiner on the top of each shoulder strap. I girth hitch a hero loop to the top of the croll and then clip the hero loop into the carabiners on my harness. Pete saw the setup when I was with him on Lunar Eclipse --- it works pretty good. The only recommendation Pete made was that I change the hero loop to a bungy cord. I still need to try this. I use a YATES shield harness and it works great to attach the croll low enough.
Richard / SPIKE
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passthepitonspete
Nov 27, 2002, 4:13 AM
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Just got back from a kick-ass 28-hour trip into the Fisher Ridge Cave System in Kentucky. We discovered, explored and surveyed about 1100' of new passage. Not bad, eh?
When was the last time you ever went where no one had gone before you? These days, really only cavers can experience this.
The entrance pitch is a sixty-foot rappel down the inside of a thirty-inch culvert. This back entrance to the cave was excavated.
At any rate, I tried out my new Petzl Torse on both the entrance pitch, and on a fifty-foot-deep blind pit I dropped, and the Torse is ETS!
Here are its benefits:
Very compact
Does not stretch, so you can lift the weight of your cave pack which hangs from the crab on which your Croll is attached [this is very difficult with just the neck elastic I used to use]
Comfortable and easy to use
Adjustable on the fly! For the Frog system to work efficiently, you must be "hunched over" which with a non-stretchy chest harness or elastic neck loop, is extremely uncomfortable when you are wearing the thing, but not actually jugging. The tension in the Torse can be tightened with a buckle [easily with one hand!] to the desired hunched-ness once you attach yourself to the rope, and can be loosened once you get off the rope, say when you are walking between pitches
But you know what really bugs me?
I like to consider myself an innovator. In 1981, we cavers from McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario explored the then-fourth-deepest cave in the western hemisphere, Sotano de Trinidad on the Xilitla Plateau in Mexico, to a depth of -829m. We were the first cavers in North America to use the Petzl Frog system as brought over by Steve Worthington, an ex-Pat Brit studying at Mac, and who had learned the technique from the Frenchies.
We used the new Petzl Frog system with the Euro method of 9mm static rope rebelayed to avoid rub points and to break up the pitch so many could ascend at once [the Merricans used only 11mm rope and rope pads, which of course don't get properly replaced]. And we applied our British trad climber ethics along with some brains and skill so that we placed not a single bolt in [to use a Kentucky-ism] the whole en-TAR cave.
I do not believe there are many, if any caves in the world so deep that were explored completely without bolts.
So we were the first kids on the block to use this stuff.
And it would appear I am [nearly] the last to catch onto the Torse!
Sheesh.
But better late than never, eh?
The Torse is clearly the Better Way, and is highly recommended by Dr. Piton!
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ljthawk
Feb 6, 2003, 11:30 PM
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PTP,
Hey that picture is the back of my roommate. He made those ORGT web pages as a class project several years ago. This evening I'll have to show him he made national stardom. I actually don't like the chest harness shown in that picture, it constantly pulls up the back of the harness; sort of like giving a harness wegy. I like the other style that just wraps around the chest, don't remember the name or have any links ((too lazy to find them). Though I am told girls prefer the harness picturered.
FYI, that shirt is pretty cool because it glows in the dark.
L.J.
www.seclimbers.org
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ljthawk
Feb 6, 2003, 11:34 PM
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OK, I'm not so lazy. Here are the pictures to the torso harness I prefer
http://www.orgt.gatech.edu/caving/frog/htorsef.jpg
http://www.orgt.gatech.edu/caving/frog/htorseb.jpg
It's the Huit Torse
L.J.
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passthepitonspete
Feb 8, 2003, 12:46 AM
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Next time get a picture of a hottie in the harness. Sheesh.
Ah, yes - that isn't the C26 Torse as you point out, but the "Huit Torse". [Like, "huit" is French for "eight", eh?]
I don't like that one. It's overkill. The C26 is simpler, cheaper, and better fitting for the purpose.
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philbox
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Mar 12, 2003, 10:46 PM
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Ding ding (pounds hand up and down on the little counter bell at the good doctors office). Where is that secretary. (pace floor, waiting, waiting). Click, click, (stilletoe heels come tapping up the hallway on the polished vinyl surgery floor). Whoa, I thinks to myself as I gaze up and down the vision of lovelyness that is radiating hottiness in a white mini skirt with clearly exposed suspenders holding up fishnet stockings. As my gaze lifts I also notice the ample cleavage that is jostling its way out of the tight half unzipped nurses uniform.
Hmmm, doc you really have scored an amazing secretary eh. All that advertising for hotties has really paid off eh.
Woddya want, she exclaims as she blows a bubble of gum at me and whines in a typical Hoboken accent. Oh ahem, I drag my gaze up to her deep baby blues, shucks, I stick my finger in my collar to release some pent up steam. Ummm err, is the good doctor in, I say feeling as sheepish as I ever have. Take a seat, he`ll be with you in a minute big boy, she pouts. I wander back towards the entry door and take a seat in a semi daze. I pick up a 1964 Readers Digest and flip through to nowhere in particular.
The doctor will see you now. I follow two beautiful legs with perfectly straight fishnet nylon seams up the hall to the consulting room that the doctor occupies.
How do I get a job here doc. Oh, yeah, why am I here. Well, umm (temperature is beginning to reduce as the blond hottie exits the room), I just got my Petzl Torse and I`m finding that I get in a pickle when I try to fit it to my harness and Croll. I must be doing someting wrong, please help me doc. How am I fitting it, well I`m glad you asked.
I`ve got the Torse fitted correctly to the back of my harness but when I try to fit it to the Croll at the front there seems to be way too much slack in the Torse. I fit the Croll to my donut via a D Mallion and I then proceed to fit the Torse to the top of the Croll via an oval biner. I noticed that you mentioned elsewhere that the Croll needs to sit on the Pubic Bone. My Croll ends up sitting virtually above the Navel. I then have to try to shorten the Torse by all sorts of jiggery pokery as I have already shortened the Torse by its built in adjustment buckles but it still needs to be shortened more.
I`m obviously doing something wrong. When I have this thing set up this way and I start to jug the v of the Torse comes up under my neck and cuts circulation and breathing off which is a bad thing. At a training day we had there was a guy who had a Croll but he simply had a strap and fastex buckle which he used like a Torse but seemed to me to be far easier to set up and use, could this perhaps be a better way than the Torse.
The nurse will see me out now, of course doc, I`ll await your prescription eagerly.
...Phil...
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jerrygarcia
Mar 12, 2003, 11:29 PM
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I love my torse, need I say more?
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climbingrant
Mar 13, 2003, 5:21 AM
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Hey Phil,
I have been doing a bit of experimenting witht he attachment of the croll to the vertical Harness that i use for most of my climbing.
I made up a strap for my croll, which attches directly through the top eye of the croll, can the torse do this??
and another hinti prefer to attach the croll using a d mallion through the waist and leg loop instead of the donut. makes it sit down lower and you will be able to tighen the sysem up more.
Do you use a vertical center point? do you have the full body??
Because i have been wondering how others attch the croll to their work harneeses as my systm doesn't seem to great, i bought the full body becuase i thought it would be good with fall arrest etc as well as easy for the crolll attachment
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punk
Mar 13, 2003, 4:06 PM
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Hey Philbox
Here how it works for me on the Yates Bigwall harness
[*:f5ce6e9018]Attach OVAL Mallion (the smallest from Petzl) to the bottom of the croll and fix it there so it doesn’t come off ever
[*:f5ce6e9018]Get the smallest locking biner u have (BD enduro or positron) and attach it to your harness through the legs loop centre and the waist belt loop center
[*:f5ce6e9018]Attach the small Carabiner from your harness to the OVAL Mallion bottom and attach the croll top to the Torse harness (make the croll aligned better with the rope and your body)
[*:f5ce6e9018]Crank on the Torse harness tight till u severely hunched down
[*:f5ce6e9018]Give it a go and adjust the system to your likening
give it a go and let me know
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beyond_gravity
Mar 14, 2003, 1:14 AM
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would a Bachmann knot work in place of a croll??? or would this be much more difficult to move up with?
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punk
Mar 14, 2003, 1:28 AM
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BG why don’t u try it and let us know...it seems u have allot of free time to come with “very interesting” scenarios :roll:
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passthepitonspete
Jul 24, 2003, 2:58 PM
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I just returned from Yosemite, and used the Petzl C26 Torse chest harness extensively. I can't begin to RANT on how b*tchin' this thing is!
One of the benefits I really noticed is its adjustability "on the fly." With one hand, you can quickly and easily loosen or tighten it as the situation warrants.
For instance, when you are about to leave the ground, you can loosen it to a comfortable amount of slack while you are fiddle-farting around with stuff, and then crank it way tight when you are about to jug your free-hanging rope.
If the angle of the rock eases a bit higher up, then you can loosen it a bit. The lower the angle, the looser you want it.
If you're on a slab, you can loosen it off even further - quickly and easily, under tension or not, with one hand. Perfect.
And when you reach the top of the pitch after jugging it, you can immediately loosen it off for instant comfort, without being hunched over by the elastic cord around your neck that I used to use.
I highly recommend you shell out the less-than-twenty bucks to buy this thing, as it will increase your jugging effeciency enormously! Because there is no stretch to the harness, you will be able to lift your lower Croll ascender in much higher steps each time.
I can't think of a better way to increase your overall efficiency in such a cheap way! Get this thing!
I am Dr. Piton,
and I think that the Petzl C26 Torse is ETS!
P.S. Watch for the Frog Ascending System to appear in my next Aid Climbing Tech Tip in Climbing Magazine.
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