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When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor?
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bkalaska


Mar 24, 2005, 7:28 AM
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When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor?
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I have been trying to figure out why a roped soloist takes the device with them. Wouldn't a bomber anchor with an unmodified Gri-gri or similar device at one end be the same as being belayed by the same device and an unattentive belayer, or by yourself in the middle of a fall for that matter. The only difference I see is the intermittent use of backup knots. It seems simpler, and less cumbersome to climb the pitch tied in normally witha backup knot at the other end of the rope, anchor off at the top, descend the rope, break down the anchor and ascend the rope while cleaning in the normal fashion. Any thoughts?


cvilleclimber


Mar 24, 2005, 7:38 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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Come again?


t-dog
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Mar 24, 2005, 7:40 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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if you tie in to one end, start off soloing and leave a grigri on the rope at the anchor, my question is: how are you going to feed out slack??? That is why when aid-soloing you have the grigri with you, so you can give yourself slack as you go and need it.


mistertyler


Mar 24, 2005, 8:22 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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I don't use gri-gri's very often but, unless positioned perfectly, would a gri-gri be able to feed very smoothly at the bottom of the route? I'd be suspect about using this method with a Silent Partner because, if the clove hitch on the drum tightened for some reason (falling, etc.) and needed to be loosened, it would be a giant pain in the ass to fix...

Disclaimer: I don't know all that much about roped soloing...


slavetogravity


Mar 24, 2005, 8:45 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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You clearly have never done any rope soloing.

Not only do you have to carry the device on your person, in order to manage the rope and feed slack, but you also have to carry the rope. Come again? You say. When ever Iíve done any rope soloing, not only have I carried the device, Iíve also carried the rope stacked in a sack on my back and had it feeding out of the bag, over my shoulder, then through the device on my harness. Soloing devices being the little mechanical marvels that they are, are not immune to jamming and general screwing-up. The though of being all run out, and freaked out, with my soloing device all jammed up on me 20meters bellow, is enough to make me mad just thinking about it. I have enough problems dealing with rope management from my animated, living, breathing, climbing partners. Let alone my inanimate ones. :roll:


shorty


Mar 24, 2005, 8:52 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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I have been trying to figure out why a roped soloist takes the device with them. ....Any thoughts?
It will only take one time rope soloing to understand the reasons why the climber takes the device with him. I recommend you try this around the house first before you venture onto a rock.

1. Rig an "anchor" in your house, say around the commode, attach the gri-gri (or whatever) to the anchor and start leading. Don't forget to place some gear near the sink or bathroom door, as you don't want a factor 2 "fall" onto the porcelain throne.

2. Assuming you even make it to the hallway before the gri-gri locks up and completely stops your progress, try making a quick lunge to the light switch. You will almost certainly be short-roped.

3. Now feed yourself some rope so you can do the same moves in the living room. Now image a locked up belay device while you are 50 feet off the deck.

Now go back to the throne and re-rig the system so that you take the gri-gri (or whatever) with you, then lead out into the living room. You will see the difference immediately. And you will save the embarrassment of doing this in the safety and privacy of your own home instead of in front of a few dozen of you new best (and snickering) friends.


mburke225


Mar 24, 2005, 9:03 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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Even without any of the advise offered by everyone above, what would happen if you fall? Yes it would catch you, but how would you lower yourself if you got to a place you couldn't climb past


glyrocks


Mar 24, 2005, 9:50 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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You take the device with you so you can maintain it. Meaning, feed slack to yourself, take in slack, make sure it's oriented correctly, take the device out of the system, and other endless scenarios. When you're by yourself a few pitches up, you want everything you might need as close as possible.


phlsphr


Mar 24, 2005, 10:59 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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I have been trying to figure out why a roped soloist takes the device with them. Wouldn't a bomber anchor with an unmodified Gri-gri or similar device at one end be the same as being belayed by the same device and an unattentive belayer, or by yourself in the middle of a fall for that matter. The only difference I see is the intermittent use of backup knots. It seems simpler, and less cumbersome to climb the pitch tied in normally witha backup knot at the other end of the rope, anchor off at the top, descend the rope, break down the anchor and ascend the rope while cleaning in the normal fashion. Any thoughts?

Some of you seem to understand the proposed alternative. I don't. "A bomber anchor with an unmodified Gri-gri or similar device at one end" ? What does it accomplish to attach a gri-gri to an anchor, and then leave it behind? That makes so little sense, I feel sure it's not what the original poster had in mind. But then, what DID he have in mind? If you don't take the device with you, you can't use it. If you can't use it, it does NOTHING. Likewise, "It seems simpler, and less cumbersome to climb the pitch tied in normally with a backup knot at the other end of the rope. . ." Why would you have a backup knot, "at the other end of the rope"? If I understand (which I don't think I do) you've got one end of the rope tied to the harness and a knot tied in the other end of the rope. How's that a backup?

Anyhow, my strong advice is to NOT try unproven techniques while rope soloing.


bkalaska


Mar 24, 2005, 11:10 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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I have been trying to figure out why a roped soloist takes the device with them. ....Any thoughts?
It will only take one time rope soloing to understand the reasons why the climber takes the device with him. I recommend you try this around the house first before you venture onto a rock.

Thank you for the advice, but actually that is exactly what I have tried. I suspected all of the problems discussed above, but I have found that as long as you draw rope out slowely the rope feeds rather well. I don't believe this is unique to my device.

As others mentioned there would seem to be a problem if you did fall, however the spring inside the gri-gri pulls the cam back enough when unweighted to release the rope, so unless on overhanging terrain this should not be a problem.

As for Slave's comments... I don't believe that a ny device is better than a good belayer, however, if you have made a decision knowing yourself and the limitations of your system to solo then you are no safer having a device fail to hold a fall in front of your balls then you are having it fail 50 ft. away. That said you can tie backup knots with the device on you adding to the redundancy which I already admitted was the weakness of this system. Are we bashing this idea because it is a safety concern or because this just "is how it's done"?

To answer the other question, If you can't go up you would be forced to build an anchor, descend, break down the anchor, ascend the rope and rap off leaving gear.


bkalaska


Mar 24, 2005, 11:18 AM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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Some of you seem to understand the proposed alternative. I don't.
Anyhow, my strong advice is to NOT try unproven techniques while rope soloing.

What was meant was to tie in with a figure 8, attach a gri-gri next to you and ascend with the rope passing through (eventually the gri-gri makes it to the end of the rope). If you are high enough on the route and the device fails, you have a knot to stop a groundfall unless the fall happens low on the climb.

I am not advocating the immediate use of this technique, nor would I try it without further testing, however my preliminary test makes me question whether this has been tested or tried, hence the original post of "why not?"

Does anyone have any numbers on gri-gri and similar device failures, not on iced ropes? I have heard rumors of this failing flyng about, but they always seem to be third hand knowledge.


phlsphr


Mar 24, 2005, 12:23 PM
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Re: When rope soloing why not set up device at the anchor? [In reply to]
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Some of you seem to understand the proposed alternative. I don't.
Anyhow, my strong advice is to NOT try unproven techniques while rope soloing.

What was meant was to tie in with a figure 8, attach a gri-gri next to you and ascend with the rope passing through (eventually the gri-gri makes it to the end of the rope). If you are high enough on the route and the device fails, you have a knot to stop a groundfall unless the fall happens low on the climb.

I am not advocating the immediate use of this technique, nor would I try it without further testing, however my preliminary test makes me question whether this has been tested or tried, hence the original post of "why not?"

Does anyone have any numbers on gri-gri and similar device failures, not on iced ropes? I have heard rumors of this failing flyng about, but they always seem to be third hand knowledge.

Ok, I think I now understand what you have in mind. It's hard enough pulling a rope through a gri-gri one handed, when it is right at your waist. I think you would find it much harder, porportional to the distance you move from the gri-gri. Talk about rope drag!

The back up knot only works if the device fails AFTER you've reached the anchor. Any knot that would prevent groundfall earlier in the climb, will also prevent you from getting back down to the ground from the anchor on rope. You'd also have to pre-measure to make sure you tied the knot at just the right spot so that you could get down from the anchors, but wouldn't let you hit the ground in the case of a device failure. This knot isn't going to help you avoid ledges, etc. you might be concerned about mid climb. On the other hand if you want a back up knot, one tied right behind the gri-gri at your waist, after you've pulled out the slack you need to get to the next rest, doesn't have these deficiencies.

Speaking of getting down, how are you going to do that? If you've got the gri-gri with you, you can just lower using the gri-gri. But if the gri-gri is still on the ground, I suppose you have to down climb to get down.

So LOTS of negatives here. What are the advantages? Not carrying the tremendous weight of the gri-gri? Well, you don't even have that advantage--it's still hanging off of you, just down at the bottom of the route. So what's the advantage? I can't see anything that would come close to all the extra hassles.


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