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angry
Mar 26, 2005, 6:29 PM
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I just read the "What piece caught your fall" thread. It amazed me as to how many people recalled their last lead fall and it was 2 months ago.
Or people who've taken one lead fall on gear ever. Some of these people are experienced even (or talk the talk anyway).
I guess I don't get it. I fall nearly every time I rope up, and I only climb trad. I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt. I do occasionally use the T word, in my circles, that is grounds for cockpunching though. You pretty much have to fall.
I didn't think I was in the minority.
For the sake of the poll, if you fall once during a day that is enough. I realize many of you work routes and fall many many times. Post up and tell us about that. Yelling take counts as zero. If you yell take, submit contact info and the cockpunching gang will be dispatched to properly deal with you.
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dutyje
Mar 26, 2005, 6:37 PM
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I am the ultimate wuss. I don't fall. I can't fall. It's related to two things, really -- I'm extremely afraid of heights and I've never, ever been seriously injured... Never broken a bone or sprained anything in my life.
My closest trad climbing friends are not afraid to fall on gear, and have been known to do so regularly (almost every time out).
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jaybro
Mar 26, 2005, 7:36 PM
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umm, multiple times every day I go out? freesolos excepted (so far)
If you're not falling, are you climbing?
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mistertyler
Mar 26, 2005, 8:45 PM
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I'm still a newish trad leader and have only been climbing for a year and a half, but I've never fallen on my gear and will feel no embarrassment whatsoever if I never do. That said, I place my gear with a lot of thought and accept the fact that, at some point during my climbing career, I'll very likely be taking a ride on it.
Your poll and post give the impression (to me, anyway) that you are proud of the fact that you fall regularly on your gear. If so, why? Falling is a form of failure and, needless to say, many climbers -- experienced ones -- have been killed or severely injured after falling on their gear. (Zippering, cams ripping, ledges, head injuries, decking, etc.)
I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:
I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.
What you're basically saying is:
1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail.
#1 is irrelevant, #2 is a circular argument, and #3 is not very truthful and not very relevant to your argument. (Bolts do fail, and people get hurt all the time while sport climbing even when they don't...)
In the end, people climb for different reasons and have very different levels of risk acceptance. All of these reasons and risk levels are entirely valid.
I congratulate you on your apparant skill at placing pro, but I've seen some scary, not-so-skilled placements/anchors in the short time I've been climbing, and these people should *NOT* be falling on their gear.
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meridith
Mar 26, 2005, 8:57 PM
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I think it's important to create a trust in your gear and/or belayer. This can be developed with practice falls. Throughout a climb, if it is challenging enough for you, there is bound to be holds without certainty.
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extrasketch
Mar 26, 2005, 9:02 PM
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umm yeah right, dude. I wonder if you will be making the same post after climbing for a couple more years.
Yes falling may be a form of failure, but it also means your pushing yourself. I personally never used to fall on gear than I got tired of only climbing stuff I was 100% sure I could onsight, what is the fun in that. Plus if you never fall how do you if your placing good gear. j/k
your calling bs on that guy is a bit whack though. I don't see much of a difference between a good cam in a parrellel crack versus a bolt. Plus if you know your going to lanch into a crux section you can double up on pro and how many sport climbs let you do that.
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golsen
Mar 26, 2005, 9:06 PM
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Hi,
I don't exactly understand what point you are trying to make. Sounds like you go for it.....great. It is extremely dependant upon the rock type and the type of climbing you are doing. In my (nearly) 3 decades of climbing I have done bunches of 10-11 R routes with the occaisional X thrown in for excitement. Many of these were new routes, done gound up and not really knowing what the hell was up there. I can assure you and your buddies that falling on some of these routes is not at all desireable unless the goal is to get published (In Accidents in North America and possibly the obituaries).
However, in a place like Indian Creek, it is easy to go for it cuz you can have pro (frequently) in your face.
If you think that falling is a required part of climbing I would say that you should go climbing miles from any road in the wilderness and think very hard about the consequences.....
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all_that_is_rock
Mar 26, 2005, 9:11 PM
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mistertyler wrote:
"I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:
I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.
What you're basically saying is:
1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail."
I think fshizzles point was that bolts can fail and so can gear. if you think falling is a form of failure than you also must think tommy caldwell is a failure. after all he did probubly fall over 100+ times before sending flex luthar. buck up kid and get used to the new school because we are here to stay. good gear is fine to fall on and I dont understand why you would call BS on fshizzles post
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all_that_is_rock
Mar 26, 2005, 9:15 PM
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mistertyler wrote:
"I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:
I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.
What you're basically saying is:
1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail."
I think fshizzles point was that bolts can fail and so can gear. if you think falling is a form of failure than you also must think tommy caldwell is a failure. after all he did probubly fall over 100+ times before sending flex luthar. buck up kid and get used to the new school because we are here to stay. good gear is fine to fall on and I dont understand why you would call BS on fshizzles post
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mistertyler
Mar 26, 2005, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: your calling bs on that guy is a bit whack though. I don't see much of a difference between a good cam in a parrellel crack versus a bolt. Plus if you know your going to lanch into a crux section you can double up on pro and how many sport climbs let you do that.
I called B.S. because the gist of his argument doesn't make any sense. Also, it's a discussion group (you're welcome to call B.S. on my arguments as well!), and his profile explicitly advocates healthy debate. :)
You may not see the difference between a good cam in a parallel crack and a bolt, but there is a difference, and it's a big one.
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tallnik
Mar 26, 2005, 9:41 PM
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I've fallen once on gear that I placed. My partner made me do it, so I would trust my placements in the future. That said, it was only about a 10ft fall onto a number two camalot. That said, I've only been leading trad for one season. This is now my second year leading trad, and while I'm generally not to hesitant about taking a fall onto my gear, I'm still suspicious about the quality of my placements (sometimes). Before I feel confident really givin' er and falling on my gear, I'd like to feel more comfortable.
Cheers,
Nik
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angry
Mar 26, 2005, 9:47 PM
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Due to my "failures" I have had far greater success than I could have had without such "failure"
I've placed plenty of shit gear, know what? I can tell that it is crap when I place it. I rarely fall on this stuff, when I have it has held. I have placed lots that will fail, I just know not to fall, or to get another in ASAP. I generally back off a crux if I can't pro it, or suck it up and fire with all barels. The balance of boldness and caution, it takes practice.
I'm not too proud to yell take if I feel that I am truly in danger (or tired, or having a high gravity day). The point of my post is not to tell you that my shit doesn't stink (actually it is oderless white pelets that are highly nutritious), but to gain some insight into the unknown. I truly do not understand why someone climbs and does not push him/herself, I don't understand fear in a safe situation - fear to me is relative to consequences, I don't understand why people place pro - expensive, certified, thouroghly inspected, in great places, and still fear it.
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mistertyler
Mar 26, 2005, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: I think fshizzles point was that bolts can fail and so can gear. if you think falling is a form of failure than you also must think tommy caldwell is a failure.
I never said or implied that people who fall are failures. My argument is that falling is not a requirement for trad leading to be a fulfilling and rewarding experience. All people have different levels of risk and they're all valid. Read my post again.
In reply to: buck up kid and get used to the new school because we are here to stay. good gear is fine to fall on and I dont understand why you would call BS on fshizzles post
I don't care about the "new school" or Tommy Caldwell. You're welcome to fall all you want on your gear; just don't tell me that, if I don't, I'm not kewl or tough or a "real" climber. (Because that would make me feel like I was back in high school, and I really hated high school.)
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golsen
Mar 26, 2005, 10:23 PM
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fshizzle,
I think you partially answered your own question. Inexperienced trad lead climbers are probably still learning to trust their gear. Experienced Trad lead climbers know when it is safe to trust said gear (and fall potential) and get confidence from that. Having said that, one of the most experienced trad climbers I know (about 300 New routes in Utah, including all over the desert and about 25 ascents of the Diamond) placed two "bomber" friends in a granite parallel sided diagonal crack and went for it and had both fail. Luckily it was bruises only as he hit the ground.
Sometimes confidence is the only deciding factor in making it up a route and that includes confidence in the gear.
There is however something along these lines I truly do not understand, and that is the climber that says they climb 5.11d sport and 5.8 trad. To me, a climber that can do that is missing a couple things: one, the ability to place and trust their gear, and 2, the abiity to control their fear. I dont advocate soloing to everyone; however, it does round out ones abilities and allows them to climb safer in the mountains, thereby providing a more rounded perspective on climbing...
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mistertyler
Mar 26, 2005, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: Due to my "failures" I have had far greater success than I could have had without such "failure" I've placed plenty of s--- gear, know what? I can tell that it is crap when I place it. I rarely fall on this stuff, when I have it has held. I have placed lots that will fail, I just know not to fall, or to get another in ASAP. I generally back off a crux if I can't pro it, or suck it up and fire with all barels. The balance of boldness and caution, it takes practice. I'm not too proud to yell take if I feel that I am truly in danger (or tired, or having a high gravity day). The point of my post is not to tell you that my s--- doesn't stink (actually it is oderless white pelets that are highly nutritious), but to gain some insight into the unknown. I truly do not understand why someone climbs and does not push him/herself, I don't understand fear in a safe situation - fear to me is relative to consequences, I don't understand why people place pro - expensive, certified, thouroghly inspected, in great places, and still fear it.
I think your tolerance for risk is just higher than mine. I wish I could just accept sh1t gear and say "well...I'd better make dammmn sure I don't fall on that one..." and then pull the moves to safety, but I can't. I haven't been climbing all that long and I'm not very strong, so my margin for error is a lot less than yours is.
There are many times on routes when I sink something and think to myself "I could hang a Winnebago off that biatch!", and in those circumstances I'm willing to climb a lot harder over the pro. If not, though, I still prefer to be careful at this point because:
1. I'm still a newish trad leader. Maybe I've completely missed some important detail...? Is my pro going to zipper? If this piece blows will I shatter my pelvis on the ledge or tear one of my testicles off on that sharp flake sticking out below me?
2. The risk of the above -- in situations in which I lack significant confidence -- isn't worth it to me. I'd rather lead something a couple grades below my limit and instead push myself on bolts, bouldering, or in a gym (I know, I know...gym climbing sucks...).
It sounds like you get a lot of satisfaction from the fear that hard trad leads can give you. That's cool with me and I find your attitude inspiring. I love watching people like you climb. Dan Osman pushes his limits in that video he made of his 4 minute speed solo of Bear's Reach and was really inspiring to watch as well, but there's no way in hell I'll ever do something like that, because the level of risk involved is too high for my taste.
I get off on beautiful, aesthetic routes regardless of their grade. The Gunks is filled with beautiful 5.8's, 6's, 4's, and even 3's that 5.12 and above traddies will happily wait in line for to climb. I love the problem-solving and creativity involved when placing pro, and being able to stop mid-pitch to turn around, savor the views beyond and below, and reflect with serene satisfaction on what it is I'm doing.
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golsen
Mar 26, 2005, 11:09 PM
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Mr Tyler,
that is a very cool reason to climb and the reason I got started many years ago. There are many different motivations and many different climbers. Some do have a higher tolerance in terms of what they risk and when and how much they fall. In the old days there was a brilliant guy in Boulder. If he fell or weighted his rope, he considered it a failure and didnt go back to the route. Wish I could remember his name and he did in fact push standards there in the 70's. Guys who are falling all of the time are probably pushing their limits but personally, I savor waiting on some routes to a time when I know I may have a good chance at a successful on-site. That remains the best style and brings a lot of satisfaction. Working a route also brings great satisfaction
These poll things are hard because as I said earlier, there are so many variables that if you climb on say Trad Quartzite in Big CottonWood Utah you will have a different outlook than a climber on trad cracks (Indian Creek).....
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mistertyler
Mar 26, 2005, 11:32 PM
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In reply to: Mr Tyler, I savor waiting on some routes to a time when I know I may have a good chance at a successful on-site.
For classic routes I really like that approach, too. Part of me is really disappointed in the fact that I seconded High Exposure shortly after starting to climb. An on-site lead would have been so much more rewarding, I think. Of course, I'm really bad at remembering moves and details of the routes I do, so for me everything is like an on-site....
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rockrat_co
Mar 26, 2005, 11:46 PM
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As Much as is needed!
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andrewph
Mar 27, 2005, 12:06 AM
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I have fallen a couple of times on my gear, though the majority of the time I'm leading I climb stuff I am close to 100% I can lead without falling.
The main reason for this is the quarry where I climb most is very ledgy and in alot of places you have to run it out a bit, so there is often the fear of hitting that last ledge.
The climbs I have fallen on have been ones that I know the fall will be clean, like on a real smoth flat slab or where that last ledge is far enough away that I wont hit it. In those cases I have felt totally fine with falling and on some even expected it.
There are also climbs that I want to do and have yet not done because I know there is no gear on them and a fall could be real bad.
Thats my 2 cents. for what its worth though I'm pretty new to climbing. Having lead 40ish climbs. (I counted today)
Andy
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petsfed
Mar 27, 2005, 12:25 AM
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I don't fall often, but that's because any more I don't get out often enough to justify spending a half a day working a climb. I like succeeding on a climb enough that unless I can do it straight away, I don't want to lose a day off trying to get there. So maybe 1 out 5 days climbing.
I remember when I'd fall every day, back when I really sucked. Now I suck less.
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tanner
Mar 27, 2005, 1:01 AM
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I occasional will fall on my gear but I don't like to. I lead just about at my TR limit within a letter or 2 so falling happens. But If the route is at my leading limit than I make sure its safe to fall. Most of my lead routes however, I consiter myself as soloing and the gear is there just in case.
The leader must not fall: on Ice, alpine routes, poor rock, slabs or 5.8's
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vegastradguy
Mar 27, 2005, 2:20 AM
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the leader doesnt fall at or below 5.9ish....at least on multipitch in Red Rocks.
after 5.9, generally things become pretty steep and falls get alot cleaner.
i've fallen about 6 or so times this season, all on routes that were 5.10 and up. Before this season (which was my first climbing 5.10 somewhat consistently), I had fallen once on trad lead (a Factor 1.7ish at that!), and that was enough for me.
Do i have a problem falling on my gear? Nope. Do i often enough to answer yes to your poll? Nope, not yet. Next year, maybe, but for now, I still climb enough at the lower grades that ledges and shit are an issue.
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gunksgoer
Mar 27, 2005, 4:20 AM
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Im in the "leader almost never falls" catergory.
i lead moderate trad routes and i can climb out of just about everything i encounter, but very ocasionally something isnt right and i end up taking a little whip. ive only taken in a handfull of falls on gear.
im not scared of the actuall fall, i fall on sport routes and leading in the gym all the time. i simply dont think falling on gear is desireable if it isnt necesary. my placements are all good and if its a nice big sure to be bomber piece i wont be scared to fall on it, i just dont like to.
with bolts on the other hand, assuming they arnt some anchient 1/4 inchers, i wont hesitate to log in some major frequent fly miles
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azrockclimber
Mar 28, 2005, 1:39 PM
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almost never (4 years 5 falls and only two real 15-30' falls)....A fall on a trad climb is a bit of an event...usually because..for me...it will be long and dangerous.. and falling is a result of a mistake and I try to make as few of those as possible on all climbs especially trad.
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jt512
Mar 28, 2005, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: Falling is a form of failure...
Falling is only a form of failure in your mind. If your only goal is to always climb without falling, then falling is failure by definition. What if your goal is to overcome irrational fears about falling on your gear; then climbing until exhaustion and falling would be a success, by definition. Back to your goal: one problem with such a goal is that it is self-limiting. To meet it you must always climb routes that you are confident you won't fall on in the first place. Since you essentially know the outcome ahead of time, your opportunities to learn something new on the climb are severely restricted. If you don't see this, consider these two things: (1) you don't really know what your limits are because you haven't experienced them, and (2) you don't trust your gear, in spite of having climbed for a year and a half because you haven't ever had to rely on your gear.
In reply to: If you and, needless to say, many climbers -- experienced ones -- have been killed or severely injured after falling on their gear.
Sure, but why the fear orientation? Climbers die, but for every one who has died tens of thousands haven't. Do you avoid flying and driving, too?
In reply to: (Zippering, cams ripping, ledges, head injuries, decking, etc.)
All of the above can be avoided: Zippering is caused by failure of the bottom piece of gear to hold an upward pull (place a multidirectional first piece). Cams don't just randomly "rip"; learn to place cams properly. Protect above ledges (duh!). Many climbers have a rule about always having two pieces between them and death. Not a bad rule, IMO. Head injuries are caused by stepping in front of your rope and getting flipped over in a fall (don't step in front of rope).
In reply to: I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post: I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt. What you're basically saying is: 1. My gear doesn't pull. 2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because... 3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail. #1 is irrelevant, #2 is a circular argument,
#2 isn't circular; it's the definition of properly placed gear. Gear doesn't randomly fail. Bad placements fail. Learn to place well and to distinguish a good placement from a bad one. Back up critical placements. Go for it.
In reply to: (Bolts do fail, and people get hurt all the time while sport climbing even when they don't...)
Failure of modern bolts is so rare that you can practically ignore the possibility. The most common reasons that people get hurt sport climbing are not knowing how to fall properly and climbing with partners who do not know how to dynamically belay. How often do you hear about a high-end sport climber getting hurt sport climbing? Almost never, and climbers at that level are taking scores of falls week in and week out.
-Jay
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