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saxfiend
Mar 25, 2005, 4:36 PM
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I am learning sport climbing, just took a class on sport leading and am now working on getting the clipping to be second-nature so I don't waste so much energy. I want to be ready for my first sport lead when my club goes to Foster Falls next month.
My question (sorry if this is a dumb noob question): Should I buy ready-made quickdraws for sport climbing, or do I need the ability to make variable-length draws with slings and biners? In the gym of course, all the bolts are in a nice more or less vertical line up the wall, so short draws is all that's necessary; but since I've never been on a real sport climb, I don't know if the bolts are as nicely lined up on the crag.
Oh, and just to head off the usual disparaging responses -- yes, I will be going with climbers who have a lot of experience with sport climbing for my first time, and yes, I will ask them for advice as well. :)
Thanks!
JL
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trenchdigger
Mar 25, 2005, 5:01 PM
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For the most part, standard draws will suit you best. They're lighter, less bulky, and much easier to clip. It doesn't hurt to have a couple of lengths though. Personally, I usually carry six 4" draws and six 7" draws to the crag. I'll also throw in a shoulder length runner or two with 'biners to supplement for longer routes or in situations where a long runner is needed to minimize rope drag.
~Adam~
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caughtinside
Mar 25, 2005, 5:15 PM
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If you've never been sport climbing outside, I'd suggest you hold off on a gear purchase for now, and borrow draws from people in your club. Then you'll have a better idea of what goes into a sport climb outdoors.
But yeah, ready made quickdraws are the way to go.
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saxfiend
Mar 25, 2005, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: If you've never been sport climbing outside, I'd suggest you hold off on a gear purchase for now, and borrow draws from people in your club.
JL
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tigerbythetail
Mar 26, 2005, 2:58 AM
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Just know this - Petzl Spirits are the gold standard of quickdraws.
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112
Mar 26, 2005, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: Just know this - Petzl Spirits are the gold standard of quickdraws.
Why doesn't anyone give Kong their due respect?
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andrewbanandrew
Mar 26, 2005, 4:15 AM
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I would try the quickdraws that other people have and make a note of what you like. If you're still deadset on buying ones then I would try every single carabiner in the store and figure out which ones you like holding best, both right side up and upside down. I happened to hate the Petzl Spirits on the rope end simply because my hands are on the small side, but you may love them. I also happen to like the BD Dynotrons better than the Petzl Spirits because they've got a slightly different gate/spine angle that fits my hand better, but it's all minor details.
In the end I would go with something reasonably priced (I spent about $13.50 per draw) that you like. Because you're going to keep them for a long, long time.
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tigerbythetail
Mar 26, 2005, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: Why doesn't anyone give Kong their due respect?
Let me pay my respects right now...that said (I feel better now) Petzl took an idea {the keylock (from Kong} and made it even better. But hell, what do I know, the only Kong biners I really know are heliums. Keep in mind BD has a keylock biner (the Positron) on the market now too. If you can't beat 'em join 'em!
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vegastradguy
Mar 26, 2005, 6:30 AM
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actually, Wild Country makes the Heliums....
not sure about Kong biners, but the Spirit is the standard because of its excellent open gate and crossload strengths....not to mention the keylock nose.
The Helium is also an excellent carabiner with 10kn open gate strength, but its large nose makes some folks nervous.
I'm really interested to see how the new DMM biners work- similar to the Helium, they're about a gram lighter...but i dont know if they are as strong.
General guidelines for sport draws: get a carabiner with a high open gate strength (9 or 10kn is ideal), as the major axis strength is high enough on any carabiner, this is a more important number.
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lucas_timmer
Mar 26, 2005, 12:09 PM
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Wildcountry and DMM has some nice ones too, but they're more for trad.
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anykineclimb
Mar 26, 2005, 3:13 PM
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In reply to: actually, Wild Country makes the Heliums.... not sure about Kong biners, but the Spirit is the standard because of its excellent open gate and crossload strengths....not to mention the keylock nose.
Um, no
Kong has been making the Helium for about 10 years.
http://outersports.com/...carabiner-helium.jpg
Kong is great stuff. I totally love their HMS keylock biners.
like others have said. play with others and get what you like and can afford
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hammerhead
Mar 26, 2005, 3:24 PM
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Rockempire has Cassin draws on sale for $8.95 each. I don't own these but it seems like a fantastic price.
Al
http://www.rockempire.com/catalog?category=carabiners
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jackhammer
Mar 26, 2005, 3:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you've never been sport climbing outside, I'd suggest you hold off on a gear purchase for now, and borrow draws from people in your club. That's a good idea, I'm sure someone will be willing to let me use theirs. Thanks! JL
Ditto on the ditto
Besides, if you really want to spend some $$$$, standard draws should be just fine.
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reno
Mar 26, 2005, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: Just know this - Petzl Spirits are the gold standard of quickdraws.
According to whom??
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talons05
Mar 26, 2005, 6:48 PM
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I don't think anyone has mentioned these yet, so let me:
Omega Pacific Dirtbag draws - They sell for about $9.95 U.S. And have a great clipping profile. They have one straight gate biner and one bent-gate. Very basic looking but they get the job done for cheap.
http://www.omegapac.com/...tbagopclqd6sb_sm.jpg
Cheers,
A.W.
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vegastradguy
Mar 27, 2005, 6:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Just know this - Petzl Spirits are the gold standard of quickdraws. According to whom??
well, simply by their strength alone, really. they have been in strength where other carabiners want to be for years. add to that their keylock, and they're at the top of the heap- for the time being, anyway...with all thats going on in carabiner development, that may change soon.
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omenbringer
Mar 27, 2005, 6:56 AM
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I had heard that Kong invented the Keylock biner design and that Petzl and a few other companies had just leased the rights to produce them. If this is true, I find it funny that Petzl gets all the credit for the design. Of course its rather odd that Kong climbing equipment as a whole is rather unheard of in the US. I ran into one of the only US distributers of Kong equipment while climbing at Lake Perris's Big Rock in California, he showed me some of the gear and it looked top notch. One piece in particular was really cool, it was called the Frog.
http://www.peak-berlin.com/artbild/10135.jpg
By the way, do you notice the keylock krab on the bottom of that quickdraw?
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anykineclimb
Mar 27, 2005, 1:14 PM
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Yes, Kong owns the patent to the Keylock and Petzl (and BD) Pays to use it.
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gunksgoer
Mar 27, 2005, 2:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Just know this - Petzl Spirits are the gold standard of quickdraws. According to whom?? well, simply by their strength alone, really. they have been in strength where other carabiners want to be for years. add to that their keylock, and they're at the top of the heap- for the time being, anyway...with all thats going on in carabiner development, that may change soon.
it almost seems like thats changing rite now. petzl biners are all regular gaits, and more and more people are finding that wiregaits can be easier to clip. spirits also weigh in at 49g, and with all the new ultra light wiregaits thats starting to seem heavier and heavier.
for 12 spirit draws, thats 24 biners. 24 x 49 = 1176g. thats about 2.5 pounds. WC heliums for example, are 33g (x 24 = 792g). biiig difference, 384 grams to be exact - almost .8 pounds. you could carry 5 or 6 more helium draws - 17 or 18 in total - for the same weight as the 12 spirits draws. (keep in mind i didnt factor in dogbone weight, although it isnt much). thats just a little comparison, but i just think that it shows how petzl spirits are starting to look more and more obsolete.
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maculated
Mar 27, 2005, 9:54 PM
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Okay, look, I have to ask:
Why the debate about weight? Say you've got a route with 14 draws required, that still not the same as carrying a rack or anything else. If you're climbing at an elite level, it seems like most of the bolts are pre-hung these days anyway.
My cheap Smiley's draws worked great for years and only recently got replaced by some Metolious ones because of a misorder. I'm not a true sport climber, but I've climbed moderate grades for a while now and I can't buy into the weight debate unless you're anything less than an elite climber.
Look for the action of the gates, look for the stiffness of the dog bone, look for the width of the gate opening. THAT's the stuff that matters.
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reno
Mar 27, 2005, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: Okay, look, I have to ask: Why the debate about weight? . . . . Look for the action of the gates, look for the stiffness of the dog bone, look for the width of the gate opening. THAT's the stuff that matters.
Thank you, Mac. You said it much better than I could have.
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saxfiend
Apr 11, 2005, 4:38 PM
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Thanks for all the good feedback!
Okay, here's a follow-up question: When I do get to the point that I'm ready to buy gear, what would be the minimum I would need for a starting sport rack? Tell me if this is close:
-- 10-12 draws
-- 3-4 24" slings (for the anchors)
-- 4 locking biners (for the anchors)
I know that the anchors I encounter will vary, but this is assuming a sport route with well-placed bolts or the like already set as an anchor at the top (like at Foster Falls).
Let me know if I'm missing something.
JL
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climbaddic
Apr 12, 2005, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: Thanks for all the good feedback! Okay, here's a follow-up question: When I do get to the point that I'm ready to buy gear, what would be the minimum I would need for a starting sport rack? Tell me if this is close: -- 10-12 draws -- 3-4 24" slings (for the anchors) -- 4 locking biners (for the anchors) I know that the anchors I encounter will vary, but this is assuming a sport route with well-placed bolts or the like already set as an anchor at the top (like at Foster Falls). Let me know if I'm missing something. JL |
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