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caughtinside
Dec 20, 2004, 6:09 PM
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I was sport climbing last weekend and noticed something when I used a friend's quickdraws.
She had Trango quickdraws, with identical biners on both ends. I think they were the classic wiregates, but I'm not sure. They were nice biners, BTW.
My issue was that I'd never once used quickdraws that had the same biner on both ends! As such, I found it really hard to tell which was the bolt, and which was the rope end. A couple times, I clipped the rope end to the bolt.
Sure, one end of the dogbone was sewn a little tighter to hold the rope end biner in place, but not so much more so than the bolt end, so it was difficult to tell at a glance.
Anyway, I thought I'd throw this out for some monday morning sport climbing chat. I don't think having the same biner on both ends is a good idea. Too easy to get the ends mixed up. Probably not a great idea to sell these as sets. Although, I've seen DMM ones that have the same biner on both ends, but one of the biners is anodized, and the other isn't for easy identification.
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j_ung
Dec 20, 2004, 6:14 PM
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I had a similar problem with a friend's Omega Dovals. I couldn't tell at a glance which direction the gate opened. It was actually pretty annoying.
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bandidopeco
Dec 20, 2004, 6:23 PM
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This shouldn't be a problem if your quick-draws are racked correctly. If the bolt-end biners are clipped to your harness then you should be able to grab them and clip the bolt with the least amount of fiddling.
As to biners, here's a vote for key-locks as the best for the bolt end. They eliminate the worry of having the little hook catch on your harness during a hard clip.
any additional thoughts/reprimands?
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euroford
Dec 20, 2004, 6:25 PM
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yeah, those dovals kinda suck. i bought several of them when they first came out thinking they looked like a nice lightweight versitile biner. since then, they have all gotten relegated to water bottle, approach shoe or misc. big wall stuff duty and don't actually get involved in the actual PPE portion of my rack.
as far as having trouble decieding which end of a quickdraw. common. don't you always rack them one way? i use BD nuetrino's on my draws and i always know that the end clipped to my harness would be the 'pro' end (in your case, 'bolt' end), i never bother looking and i never bother thinking about it, just clip and go.
wouldn't the sling kinda give it away anyways? i'll admit to having a fairly color cordinate rack for identification purposes, but can still tell which end of a draw goes where.
if it really sketches you out though, you could always put some colored tape on each biner to identify.
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andy_reagan
Dec 20, 2004, 6:30 PM
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Dude, that's completely whack. I like my safety to have clearly marked snappers, yo.
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caughtinside
Dec 20, 2004, 7:25 PM
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Yep, I did have them clipped to my harness by the bolt end. But, I had to look carefully at each draw to determine which end was the bolt end! The two sides of the sling were so similar, I couldn't tell which end was which at a glance. I even racked a few on my harness upside down, because I didn't look too closely.
Hell, maybe I'm alone in thinking I should be able to tell which end is which, instantly, without having to examine each draw and carefully clip it to my harness. :P
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kaylinr
Dec 20, 2004, 7:41 PM
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I have the same set of Trango Classic Wiregate draws, and it is hard to tell at glance which end is which. I think part of the problem is the little 4 inch slings that came with the draws. They are so short that the loose end only has about 3/4" more webbing than the tight end. I have some omega draws that are the same size, but they are blue with a contrasting black tag on the loose end. The trango's have black slings and black tabs. They're very clean looking, but it wouldn't be too hard to clip one backwards.
I decided to buy a box of Trango Superfly draws and create Classic/Superfly hybrids. I like having visually different biners too. I haven't decided which biner is going to be the bolt biner though. Both have a pretty small rope bearing radius, so I guess it will come down to which is easier to clip.
Full marks to Trango though, the classic wiregates are amazing for the $$$.
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cgailey
Dec 20, 2004, 7:54 PM
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Solutions:
Tape one biner...rope or bolt
Use strings (petzl) on the rope end...
Get used to the gear...I'm sure most of your difficulty was due to the fact that it was your friend's gear.
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overlord
Dec 20, 2004, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: Solutions: Tape one biner...rope or bolt Use strings (petzl) on the rope end... Get used to the gear...I'm sure most of your difficulty was due to the fact that it was your friend's gear.
thats what i did about a month back after reading a post about grooves on bolt end biners and aplications of these on same-biner draws. i went to check my rack and sure there was a groove on one biner.
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sarcat
Dec 20, 2004, 9:10 PM
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Ordered some biners once from an on line store. They guaranteed they'd match. Didn't so sent them back. I'm that anal about matching that to me there ARE two different colors of bronze BD Quicksilver II.
.... and the bent gates always go on the rope side and they are all blue.
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caughtinside
Dec 21, 2004, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: any additional thoughts/reprimands?
Yes, now that I think of it. 8^)
10 of my draws are BD QS2/Hotwires. 4 are longer draws, 7" bones, 6 are shorter, 5" bones.
First, I wish I had 8 long and 2 short. The long ones are so superior its not even funny.
Second, the biners and bones on all of them are the same olive green color. This means it isn't super obvious which are the longs and which are the shorts when they're clipped to my harness. I've gotten around this by putting the long draws up front, 2 on each side, but I really wish I had different colored biners/bones so they would be instantly recognizable.
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andy_reagan
Dec 22, 2004, 1:31 AM
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In reply to: First, I wish I had 8 long and 2 short. The long ones are so superior its not even funny.
I agree. The real short bones some companies make are lame. I havn't ever come into a situation where the longish draws are any worse than a short draw. Usually they're much, much better, allowing for an easier/shorter clip. I like not having to haul up the rope an extra 3 inches. Doesn't sound like much but when you think about a route with 10 clips thats 2 and a half feet of extra rope to haul up total.
I'm actually thinking about getting a set of draws that progressively get longer and longer. The first draw's bone would have to be about 3-4 meters long, the next about 6, then about 10, etc. This way I could set the draws on my project and be able to make every single clip from the ground.
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lessthanjoey
Mar 28, 2005, 7:21 PM
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I also have the Trango Classic Wiregate quickdraws. I just put different colored tape on each end. Most of my stuff is marked with both green and yellow tape together so I just made rope end yellow, bolt end green on these. Makes it easier to quickly identify. They're also always racked the same way.
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coldclimb
Mar 29, 2005, 1:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: First, I wish I had 8 long and 2 short. The long ones are so superior its not even funny. I agree. The real short bones some companies make are lame. I havn't ever come into a situation where the longish draws are any worse than a short draw. Usually they're much, much better, allowing for an easier/shorter clip. I like not having to haul up the rope an extra 3 inches. Doesn't sound like much but when you think about a route with 10 clips thats 2 and a half feet of extra rope to haul up total.
I'm with you, only a step further, and for different reasons. I don't even take my draws out anymore, ever since I got enough runners for a decent rack of trad draws. Sport draws are rendered totally obsolete. :? I use the tripled runner method, because you get the same length of a long quickdraw, but the versatility and practically limitless options of a runner and two biners that can be used for SO much more than just clipping bolts.
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caughtinside
Mar 29, 2005, 1:31 AM
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Coldclimb, I've seen other people mention that they don't use quickdraws on trad as well, or say that quickdraws are worthless for trad. I think that you're doing yourself a disservice by thinking that.
Now, I use mostly tripled runner/trad draws for trad climbing as well, but I started carrying 2 or 3 quickdraws, with the longer, 7" bones, and I haven't looked back.
Why?
Because there's no messing around! If you're climbing straight up, and it's a bit of a dicey stance you're placing from, I don't want to mess around with a tripled runner, where the biner may be flopping around god knows where. Plus, less bulky on your harness, and clips easy owing to the bone holding the biner steady. Just nicer than this obnoxious tangle on the back of my harness.
You should give it a try. Maybe not with some short quickdraws, but longer ones are great.
And you can't use tripled runners for sport. Well, you can, but it'd be really lame and annoying.
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jt512
Mar 29, 2005, 4:07 AM
Post #17 of 26
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In reply to: This shouldn't be a problem if your quick-draws are racked correctly. If the bolt-end biners are clipped to your harness then you should be able to grab them and clip the bolt with the least amount of fiddling.
One of us is missing something. If the biners are identical, then how do you know which end to clip to your harness?
In reply to: As to biners, here's a vote for key-locks as the best for the bolt end. They eliminate the worry of having the little hook catch on your harness during a hard clip. any additional thoughts/reprimands?
Yeah, keylocks for both ends, and for your trad rack, too.
-Jay
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jt512
Mar 29, 2005, 4:13 AM
Post #18 of 26
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In reply to: I was sport climbing last weekend and noticed something when I used a friend's quickdraws. She had Trango quickdraws, with identical biners on both ends. I think they were the classic wiregates, but I'm not sure. They were nice biners, BTW. My issue was that I'd never once used quickdraws that had the same biner on both ends! As such, I found it really hard to tell which was the bolt, and which was the rope end.
All of my friends who have draws with identical biners on both ends simply mark their bolt-end biners with colored tape or nail polish.
-Jay
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eyecannon
Mar 29, 2005, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: Coldclimb, I've seen other people mention that they don't use quickdraws on trad as well, or say that quickdraws are worthless for trad. I think that you're doing yourself a disservice by thinking that. Now, I use mostly tripled runner/trad draws for trad climbing as well, but I started carrying 2 or 3 quickdraws, with the longer, 7" bones, and I haven't looked back. Why? Because there's no messing around! If you're climbing straight up, and it's a bit of a dicey stance you're placing from, I don't want to mess around with a tripled runner, where the biner may be flopping around god knows where. Plus, less bulky on your harness, and clips easy owing to the bone holding the biner steady. Just nicer than this obnoxious tangle on the back of my harness. You should give it a try. Maybe not with some short quickdraws, but longer ones are great. And you can't use tripled runners for sport. Well, you can, but it'd be really lame and annoying.
I too often use quickdraws for trad, but I also occassionally use trad draws for sport! ;)
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emotionus
Mar 29, 2005, 12:24 PM
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I've never done it, but my friend is a dick.
Quite frequently he doesn't anchor at the top of the climb becuase he's lazy and has to do it his way (while coming off belay. thanks for possibly making me drive to the hospital).
Anyways, he just clips shit in and thinks its all the same. So is he right, or is there a significant disadvantage to clipping the "wrong" end?
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organic
Mar 29, 2005, 1:26 PM
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you peeps seems crazy?!?!? Why would it matter what end you clip to the bolt or to the rope? the strength of the quickdraw does not change. If I ever get this anal about my climbing someone please give me penalty slack.
PS. Don't you rack your draws the way you want to clip them?
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wingnut
Mar 29, 2005, 1:31 PM
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the strength doesn't change, but it's harder to clip when on biner is flopping around. thats why almost all draws have a tighter loop or an inner rubber loop on the clipping end.
and yes, you should rack your draws the same way you want to clip them.
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jt512
Mar 29, 2005, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: you peeps seems crazy?!?!? Why would it matter what end you clip to the bolt or to the rope?
The inside surface of the bolt-end biner gets roughed up with usage, and if you run your rope through that end, you'll wear your rope out faster.
In reply to: If I ever get this anal about my climbing someone please give me penalty slack.
If you ever run my rope through biners that have been used for clipping bolts, you'll get plenty of penalty slack.
-Jay
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samuel
Apr 1, 2005, 10:22 AM
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In reply to: you peeps seems crazy?!?!? Why would it matter what end you clip to the bolt or to the rope? the strength of the quickdraw does not change. If I ever get this anal about my climbing someone please give me penalty slack. PS. Don't you rack your draws the way you want to clip them?
He also pointed out that this was a problem when clipping his draws to his harness, or arranging them in other ways.
I've borrowed draws from friends where both sides are very similar (straight wire gates) and I found it a bit annoying to figure out which side was which.
And it does matter what end you clip to the bolt/rope.
In addition to the wear of the bolt end that might damage the rope, the bolt end is all floppy for a reason. It is supposed to help the biner keep the correct orientation on the bolt/gear to not getting snagged on the gate and cause leverage or cross-loading on the biner, even when you are moving a bit up to the side of the bolt.
Also, having the bolt end floppy helps keeping the gear (trad) from shifting around, which is a bad thing.
The correct orientation of your draws should be documented in the instructions that came with them.
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