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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 7:22 PM
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OK, if you've seen the new Indian Creek guidebook from Sharpend, the introduction states that all gear beta will be reported in Wild Country "Friend" sizes, because of traditions. Then, there is this completely hoakey chart which supposedly compares the different sizes.
Can anyone please explain this to me? The chart is missing numerous sizes, then occasionally, the book will reccomend a cam size that doesn't exist in WC sizes, i.e., a "#0.4". What does all this mean?
I kinda think giving out specific beta, as in "bring 7 2.5 friends" is pretty stupid in the first place...what's wrong with saying "gear to 3", extra 2.5's"? But, if you're going to try to do it, at least have it make sense!
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boltdude
Mar 29, 2005, 7:36 PM
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It's a tradition at Indian Creek, and due to the extremely large number of the same size cams typically used on some routes, it makes sense to mention that you need 8 each of 2 and 3 inch pieces.
On the other hand, they haven't gotten their act together on cam sizes, especially since no one knows Friend sizes anymore. But even when you carefully standardize the cam sizes and use the actual crack size as the gauge (like we do with Supertopo guidebooks), people still ignore the intro cam chart and mess it up (like a couple of my friends did, seeing 0.4" pro on the Freeblast topo, and bringing down to a #0.4 Camalot - which is 0.75" pro).
And when the new extended range cams come into the picture, those charts are going to be a nightmare to make and even worse to read. It will probably have to go to actual crack size as the only way to figure out what you want...
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 7:41 PM
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That's why I think the whole enterprise of giving exact gear beta is hopeless. Just go climb the thing and figure it out for yourself, why submit yourself to teh possibility of an error?
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mdude
Mar 29, 2005, 7:45 PM
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MAN, get a grip. Sizes on the comparison chart are right on. Doid you read it right.
The guide book is just providing a little guidance in gear selection. Some like that in the guide. IC cracks are continuous, helps do know what to take and what to leave behind.
It is only a guide book. If you don't like, don't use. Or buy.
Whatever,
MD
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mattm
Mar 29, 2005, 7:56 PM
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In reply to: It's a tradition at Indian Creek, and due to the extremely large number of the same size cams typically used on some routes, it makes sense to mention that you need 8 each of 2 and 3 inch pieces. On the other hand, they haven't gotten their act together on cam sizes, especially since no one knows Friend sizes anymore. But even when you carefully standardize the cam sizes and use the actual crack size as the gauge (like we do with Supertopo guidebooks), people still ignore the intro cam chart and mess it up (like a couple of my friends did, seeing 0.4" pro on the Freeblast topo, and bringing down to a #0.4 Camalot - which is 0.75" pro). And when the new extended range cams come into the picture, those charts are going to be a nightmare to make and even worse to read. It will probably have to go to actual crack size as the only way to figure out what you want...
Quick note on the Supertopo chart - whats up with the "pink" .5 camalot - its purple and everyone knows that. It's been in the cart FOREVER and in all the new updates as well.
I like the Supertopo gear beta - yeah it takes the "adventure" down a notch BUT it lets me climb more stuff since I don't have to screw around hauling a ridiculous rack OR worse, take for ever on a lead because I didn't have the right gear. I'd rather have the correct gear and finish a long climb then get 5 up and rap because I didn't bring the .4in pieces.
To each their own though
Last note - Yeah it's a pain to have different sizes from different brands but I've gotten good at conversion between WC and BD and MEt TCUs and Aliens - I'm horrible at Met 4CUs above the orange size since I don't use them but when someone says yellow camalot i can go purple WC (3)
blue BD is blue Wc (3.5) red bd is gold WC (2.5ish)
rough conversions but I know about where they fall - not for everyone but i like to speak different size languages - next up is size in inches to size in brands
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 8:11 PM
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OK, I think I'm not posing the question clearly enough.
If the guidebook says "bring x number of 0.4"...what the hell does that mean? To my knowledge, there is not 0.4 Friend.
And if the stupid chart only includes every other BD Camalot size...what the hell does that mean?
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 29, 2005, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: If the guidebook says "bring x number of 0.4"...what the hell does that mean? To my knowledge, there is not 0.4 Friend. And if the stupid chart only includes every other BD Camalot size...what the hell does that mean?
Dude, you are coming off as rockgumby in this thread.
What part don't you get about a #3 friend fits a 3 inch crack?
A .5 friend fits a .5 inch crack.
A .4 .....
As far as rack specific beta, you haven't spent much time there or you wouldn't complain about it.
There are some routes in the creek where camalots will not work. (The most common gap to cause problems is at the #2 friend size.)
I haven't seen the chart, but I would assume it reflects what people actually use as a result of the demanding nature of splitters.
A full creek rack is close to a hundred cams, up to 9 of each size. Gear beta from a friend or from a book, either way it is standard procedure at the creek. (there are a few easy routes that you can do with a standard trad rack. and the towers are pretty much a standard rack)
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 8:58 PM
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Busted! I'm a gumby.
So are you saying that the gear beta is actually the size of the crack? Then why not say that in the introduction rather than saying that Friend sizes are given, and then giving sized that don't exist in Friends.
As for the skipping of cams in the chart, take a look at the chart and I think you'll see what I mean.
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: As far as rack specific beta, you haven't spent much time there or you wouldn't complain about it.
yeah, just wanted to comment on this part. The whole reason I am asking these questions is because I have not found these gear lists to be useful. For example, when it tells me to bring 4 #0.4's on "Death of a Cowboy", I don't really know what means. So if someone out there does know what that means and would be willing to explain it to me sans tude, then I wouldn't have to do what I do now which is to look at the crack and think for myself. I want to be lazy like the rest of you, but I'm too much of a gumby to figure out the stupid chart...please help me!
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maculated
Mar 29, 2005, 9:28 PM
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I'm sorry, but when I went bought my guide in Moab last week, I had to ask the clerk if this book was actually any good. The beta on the # of cam sizes was right on, and that was something I was worried about (having 3 racks between my partner and I).
I mean. The glossy photos! The essays! The pretty pretty guidebook!!
It is. I can't believe how much money they must have spent to produce something that nice. Worth every penny. I actually have it with me right now .. . .
I need to go back. I need to go back . . .
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...tPhoto&PhotoID=51070
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timmy_t
Mar 29, 2005, 9:29 PM
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It boils down to using common sense, look at the crack, and use your knowledge of sizes, brands, etc., along with the book if needed. Since when have climbers used a book as a crutch?? Be careful if you find that the crutch is taken from you unexpectedly!!!
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elvislegs
Mar 29, 2005, 9:39 PM
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i noticed when i was there that the cam chart effected my climbing "alot". and by "alot" i mean "not at all".
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tradklime
Mar 29, 2005, 10:01 PM
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In reply to: I want to be lazy like the rest of you, but I'm too much of a gumby to figure out the stupid chart...please help me!
I seem to be in the minority in that I actually understand your question/ complaint. If you are going to go through the effort, at least do it right. That said, I can't help you, and I don't know what is implied by a 0.4 friend. One could assume that it actually means that the crack is 0.4 inches, but that equates to a "00" friend or perhaps a Z4 zero. But the point of the chart is that you shouldn't have to assume anything, you should just look at the chart!
:roll: gumby!
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angry
Mar 29, 2005, 10:14 PM
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There are so many things I hate about that guidebook. At first I loved the idea of a beautiful coffee table book that is a guide, now it's just annoying. Too much to carry, and too worried about bending a beautiful glossy page.
The essays are stupid (some are quite good, but most are dumb) and the guidebook author changed ratings. Apparently he is fucking badass at tight hand cracks and can't climb a fistcrack to save his life (don't even start with that hand size bull, I've rarely met an adult male with hands smaller than mine, and even more rarely met an inexperienced woman who could crank just cause of hand size.)
The cam chart is retarded, but so what. A guidebook gets you to the route without getting lost too bad, this one at least does that rather well. Racks are heavy at the creek, so what if you carry 2 extra 3.5's up a route, or bring 6 pieces you don't even use. You'll live. Almost every route is easy to look at and decide what to bring. By the middle point on the rope, you should know if you are fully screwed or not, you can always lower down and get more. The best cam beta I ever heard for that place was simply "lots".
End rant....for now
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golsen
Mar 29, 2005, 10:56 PM
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Chart sounds screwy, they should have got it right, I mean its not a hard thing to research from the manufacturers.
I wish they never would have made a guidebook to the place. Here I am showing my age and fondness for times gone by, but I can't begin to describe how cool it was to climb there in the early 80's exploring some of the less travelled walls looking for new routes, climbing a route only to find a lone machine bolt anchor from SH....Pretty pictures are nice but the age of exploration of crags is swiftly dissapearing. Yes there are miles of cliffs in southern Utah but it definitely is a finite resource. Think I will sink back to my rocking chair...
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barc
Mar 29, 2005, 10:58 PM
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I guess I agree with you, but I've never had a problem figuring out the pro. I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you're over reacting a bit though. It is just a guidebook.
PS I like the stories.
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: I wish they never would have made a guidebook to the place. Here I am showing my age and fondness for times gone by, but I can't begin to describe how cool it was to climb there in the early 80's exploring some of the less travelled walls looking for new routes, climbing a route only to find a lone machine bolt anchor from SH....Pretty pictures are nice but the age of exploration of crags is swiftly dissapearing. Yes there are miles of cliffs in southern Utah but it definitely is a finite resource. Think I will sink back to my rocking chair...
You might want to check out N Wash...it's like the creek, but 20 years ago.
In reply to: I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you're over reacting a bit though.
Is it over-reacting to ask for clarification on reading a chart? I think the over-reacting is coming from the people that freak out (and assume I'm a dumb gumby) because I asked a question.
Maybe the only reason I have this problem is because I'm the only person to be climbing the 0.4 Friend sized cracks? Who knows?
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: I guess I agree with you, but I've never had a problem figuring out the pro.
I don't have a problem figuring out the pro either, I just look at the crack. My point is, since I've written a guidebook myself, why include a chart that is worthless and gear beta that recommends cams that don't exist?
I assumed that I was simply misunderstanding the chart and gear beta, so I asked for help. I guess I was not misunderstanding anything...it's just a bad chart and bad beta.
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grayhghost
Mar 29, 2005, 11:29 PM
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rockprodigy,
Now I know you may be new to climbing
but sometimes we as "real climbers" like
to look in a book and find out the exact
pieces of pro we need to bring on a climb
so we don't blow the onsight (this means
first try) ascent. I feel just as you do that
the chart is screwy, I mean I brought the
required number of cams on Supercrack but
the guide didn't tell me how mant carabiners
I needed so I ended up having to untie at every
piece and thread the rope through the sling,
what a pain!
In reality, they should just give the crack size
and leave the personal brand decisions up to
the climber.
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dsafanda
Mar 29, 2005, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: I don't have a problem figuring out the pro either, I just look at the crack. My point is, since I've written a guidebook myself, why include a chart that is worthless and gear beta that recommends cams that don't exist?
Valid question but why not ask the author instead of the RC.com population at large. Surely, you knew you were going to get these kind of responses.
Besides, if you've written a guidbook you already know the answer. Rockclimbing guidebook authors can be very lazy and who can blame them. There's not much money in it and ultimateley they'd rather be climbing.
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jaybro
Mar 29, 2005, 11:50 PM
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#'s =inches, ala the (aproximate) friend™ nomencalture.
What could .4 mean other than just under half an inch?
Why make this so difficult?
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boltdude
Mar 30, 2005, 12:15 AM
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In reply to: Quick note on the Supertopo chart - whats up with the "pink" .5 camalot - its purple and everyone knows that. It's been in the cart FOREVER and in all the new updates as well.
Anyway, if a 0.4 is supposed to be a Friend size, that would be the size of the Friend when fully open, so the appropriate crack size would be somewhere around 0.3-.35 inches. The main confusion with Friend sizes is that the size is the fully expanded size and not the crack size, but I don't know if Bloom carried that down to 0.4 or not.
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dsafanda
Mar 30, 2005, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Quick note on the Supertopo chart - whats up with the "pink" .5 camalot - its purple and everyone knows that. It's been in the cart FOREVER and in all the new updates as well. Sorry about that, my guess is Chris bootied some old sun-bleached .5 and it looks pink, and he never fixed it the chart.
Good guess Greg and for what it's worth we're sticking with pink. I just took a look at the proof(sitting on my desk) for the BigWalls edition2 which went to the printer last week. Still pink. ;)
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mattm
Mar 30, 2005, 12:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Quick note on the Supertopo chart - whats up with the "pink" .5 camalot - its purple and everyone knows that. It's been in the cart FOREVER and in all the new updates as well. Sorry about that, my guess is Chris bootied some old sun-bleached .5 and it looks pink, and he never fixed it the chart. Good guess Greg and for what it's worth we're sticking with pink. I just took a look at the proof(sitting on my desk) for the BigWalls edition2 which went to the printer last week. Still pink. ;)
Nice - I figured you (the great supertopo crew) had some inside humor going on there - i've also heard other "in" jokes regarding gear beta when the placement was so ridiculous it really didn't have beta
beware the seemingly innocent "ball nut" beta ;)
Big Walls 2 at the printer? Sweet - Visa is ready to go...
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