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maxk
Apr 15, 2005, 1:54 AM
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I recently started leading and went strait to trad. It has taken my 5.10 ability and made it like 5.6 with shaky knees. so my mind is looking for a mental way to overcome stepping above the gear. i feel comfy with my ability to place, i, not sure what it is. so any help would be appriciated. my mind is being tormented by its prepubesent state.
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corpse
Apr 15, 2005, 1:59 AM
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Just keep leading really easy stuff, over and over, and you will get more comfortable climbing above the easy stuff.. Others will say to take some leader falls with some bomber placements. I still haven't had the nerve to take a deliberate leader fall on gear, sport sure, but not yet on gear - even though I "knew" the stuff would hold. And going straight into trad is great... I didn't want do any sport climbing until I had some trad climbing under my belt.
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vegastradguy
Apr 15, 2005, 2:53 AM
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time and rate, my friend, time and rate.
(in other words, experience!)
just keep at it, enjoy those 5.6's and 5.7's, get lots of mileage, and before you know it, you'll be moving your way up through the grades, enjoying every minute of it....
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angry
Apr 15, 2005, 3:25 AM
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Am I the only guy on this site who assumed that I should be able to climb 10's trad since I could climb 10's toprope on a wall??
I knew how to place my gear correctly, I wasn't going to die, but I didn't know how to jam, lock, stack, armbar, or any other useful crack climbing technique. So I fell. The third time I led a crack, I fell. (the first was easy and the second would have ended me had I fallen).
If you can place good gear (and it sounds like you can), try a steeper safer route and give it a whip.
Some people have a great aptitude toward the function of cams, nuts, ropes systems, a safe place to fall, an unsafe place to fall, and how to best orient the rope should a fall occur. Others do not and need much much practice. You need to figure out which one you are and then you can decide what road to take.
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remi
Apr 15, 2005, 3:27 AM
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I find I do well when I've got a tune in my head or something...so this music just goes round and round in my mind...da de da...and all of a sudden I'm at the top! Or finding a rest and just doing the deep breaths...in/out about 10 times...that's also calming. You kind of have to trick your mind into thinking about something else...
Ryan
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weasel
Apr 15, 2005, 4:14 AM
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"All this gear is just for show anyhow. Real security comes from not falling off."
I don't remember who said that. One of the Lowe brothers...
But it's just that, don't expect yourself to fall and you probably won't.
P.S. please correct that quote if it's not right.
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jorgle
Apr 15, 2005, 4:57 AM
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Don't be a number chaser. The harder stuff will come with time. Just climb.
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vegastradguy
Apr 15, 2005, 4:59 AM
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In reply to: Don't be a number chaser. The harder stuff will come with time. Just climb.
Exactly.
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corpse
Apr 15, 2005, 5:02 AM
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speaking of balls, I just read this (true or not), and its funny...
A young woman was pulled over for speeding. An Illinois State Trooper walked to her car window and flipped open his ticket book. She said, "I bet you are going to sell me a ticket to the State Troopers Ball." He replied, "Illinois State Troopers don't have balls." There was a moment of silence while she smiled, and he realized what he'd just said. He then closed his book, got back in his patrol car and left. She was laughing too hard to start her car.
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cruze
Apr 15, 2005, 6:00 AM
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Hey there. I think that we were all in your position at some stage. Personnally I think that grades in gyms should be taken with a bucketful of salt but that is a different story.
I think that rather than jump on steep stuff as mentioned in another post, you should practice on the well-protected low-angled stuff. Placing GOOD gear quickly and easily will come with time. But for now you don't want to be doing that while pumping out. Sure the fall may be safer if the gear actually holds but I have found that learning in a situation where you don't have to fight against your body is the better situation. The old adage of climb not to fall should still be applied to us beginners/novices. I know some will disagree but they probably aren't beginners any more and can barely remember what it was like.
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reno
Apr 15, 2005, 6:12 AM
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In reply to: Don't be a number chaser. The harder stuff will come with time. Just climb.
Best advice ever given on this site.
Bravo. Bravo indeed.
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lucas_timmer
Apr 15, 2005, 9:24 AM
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If you never had any lead falls, then first practice it in a gum or on a easy sport route.Just my advice, I'm still spooked to fall on trad leads too....
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chauch
Apr 15, 2005, 12:44 PM
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after a girls volleyballl game the other day me and two other fellas were waiting for some ladies, so we picked up some basketballs and were trying to make them into the goal that was raised to the ceiling. so eventually i got it stuck between the backboard and rim, so another guy threw another ball up there and that one stuck as well. neither one of us could get out balls to drop...
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skateman
Apr 15, 2005, 2:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't be a number chaser. The harder stuff will come with time. Just climb. Exactly.
MaxK, Ultimately you have to ask yourself why are you doing trad? If you are climbing just for the fun of it, relax and don't worry about the numbers. If you want
to be involved with a SAR (search and rescue), then chase the numbers!
If it were my A$$ on the line, (and it often is) I would stay within my comfort zone. This can be achieved by doing a little research on the route to be climbed. Either by topropiing the route first or gathereing beta from guidebooks or word of mouth.
Sometimes you will be suprised by the ratings anyway. I would rather lead a straightforward PG rated 5.9 than a 5.6R with an awkward poorly protected crux move. However, it has also been my (limited)experience , the scarier the lead, the bigger the adrenelin rush and feeling of reward for making the climb.
Parting shot: make sure your gear is bomber! When it's placed properly, it really does work! (known from personal experience) Having an experienced climber critique your placements is never a bad idea!
Enjoy!
S-
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keithlester
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Apr 15, 2005, 2:37 PM
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[quote="skateman]Parting shot: make sure your gear is bomber! When it's placed properly, it really does work! (known from personal experience) Having an experienced climber critique your placements is never a bad idea!
Enjoy!
S-
This advice gets given out on these forums all the time. But when you're out there on a mountain doing a trad lead with your regular partner, there usually ain't an "experienced climber" to quiz about your gear placements. Even if there was, it's your life, and your gear, YOU have to be satisfied with the risk assessment you have made, or else you shouldn't be out there and leading.
I go along with the idea of staying in your comfort zone until you have the experience to judge for yourself. You'll still get the odd nasty surprise, even if you get good beta, there's small matters like getting off-route, bad weather, natural hazards, you'll still get plenty of scary moments at whatever grade you climb.
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skateman
Apr 15, 2005, 2:51 PM
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In reply to: [quote="skateman]Parting shot: make sure your gear is bomber! When it's placed properly, it really does work! (known from personal experience) Having an experienced climber critique your placements is never a bad idea! Enjoy! S-
This advice gets given out on these forums all the time. But when you're out there on a mountain doing a trad lead with your regular partner, there usually ain't an "experienced climber" to quiz about your gear placements. Even if there was, it's your life, and your gear, YOU have to be satisfied with the risk assessment you have made, or else you shouldn't be out there and leading.
I go along with the idea of staying in your comfort zone until you have the experience to judge for yourself. You'll still get the odd nasty surprise, even if you get good beta, there's small matters like getting off-route, bad weather, natural hazards, you'll still get plenty of scary moments at whatever grade you climb.
Keith, because it gets posted on rc.com all the time, there must be some wisdom behind it! It's just advice to a budding trad climber. I'm not telling him how he should conduct himself in absolute terms. And you are correct about route finding and bad weather- Some of the Gems that make trad climbing so interesting!
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cfnubbler
Apr 15, 2005, 2:55 PM
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In reply to: All this gear is just for show anyhow. Real security comes from not falling off." I don't remember who said that. One of the Lowe brothers...
No that it really matters, but they aren't brothers. Alex Lowe wasn't even related to the others, and unless I'm mistaken, George and Geoff are cousins.
-Nubbler
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maxk
Apr 15, 2005, 4:57 PM
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i am not a number chaser. i dont care about grade. i was trying to say that my skill decreases dermaticly struggling on 5.6's. i see where u see that but i just worded it poorly. at no time did i think i could climb 5.10 lead but would never imagine the extent of the toll mental takes out of my ability if that makes sense
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dirtme
Apr 16, 2005, 10:00 PM
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The best way to get confident with your placements is to do some aid climbing. Just get a rack and a understanding belayer and head out on a C1 route. Yarding on gear really shows you the stuff really works.
And in no way did I feel like I could lead 10 trad even when I was leading 12 sport. It took me about 1 1/2 years to start leading in the 10's consistently and 3-4 years before I started leading 1 letter grade below my sport limit.
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rrrADAM
Apr 17, 2005, 12:44 AM
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In reply to: I recently started leading and went strait to trad. It has taken my 5.10 ability and made it like 5.6 with shaky knees. so my mind is looking for a mental way to overcome stepping above the gear. i feel comfy with my ability to place, i, not sure what it is. so any help would be appriciated. my mind is being tormented by its prepubesent state.
Just keep climbing, gain proficiency (speed & solid) at placing pro, your confidence will go up in no time. I've taken two 40+ footers, one on a #9 Stopper and the other on a Yellow Alien, and plenty of smaller falls, so I have confidence in my placements when I feel they are bomber, and will go for a iffy move.
Trad is the Chessgame of climbing... Mental, physical, and technical... All have to be in balance to be in the zone. I've seen 5.12 sport/gym climbers bail after peeing themselves when 10' above a solid stopper on a 5.9, cause the head wasn't there.
Funny how when cleaning, TRing, or 2nding a climb it seems so easy and there are all kinds of bomber placements you see when one first starts Trad... Then when one leads the same route they think some of those "bomber placements" won't hold a popcorn fart. :lol:
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tedwarski
Apr 17, 2005, 1:15 AM
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:idea: Best advice I ever received (I mantra during my leads): Protect well and move up
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ryan112ryan
Apr 17, 2005, 12:21 PM
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right now im in the same sitcuation, ive started leading, ive been just leading a bunch, but i am still very shaky, my issue isn't falling so much its the fact that since im on such low grades 5.4-6 the routes are "ledgy" or not vertical so id just bounce the whole way down......i try no to think of it man, so sew it up, or if your on a bolted route, just look for the next bolt and go thats kinda been my mental set recently, its sorta worked, when i get back to my dorm i always second guess why i lead climb, but i push myself to get back out there and hopefully ill get over it.
-Ryan
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Apr 18, 2005, 5:15 PM
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The following is the best piece of advice for a beginning trad leader that I have ever read anywhere from rgold. Print it out, stick it in your guidebook, and read it before every lead. This is in the sticky rgold collection post in general climbing. Do yourself a favor and read the whole thread like the ten commandments of trad climbing. Also, if at all possible, follow an experienced trad leader up a bunch of climbs.
"The most important principle for using trad protection, especiallly but not exclusively if you are just learning, is redundancy. The idea is to develop a system you trust while maintaining a healthy scepticism about the reliability of any one piece. Try not to put yourself in the position of having a single piece, no matter how "bombproof," between you and disaster.
Placing more than gear than seems to be essential requires discipline and endurance, marks of a good trad climber. Failing safely is a better longevity option than betting the farm on a single piece.
Nonetheless, all climbing to some extent, but trad climbing intrinsically, involves risk. A lot of climbs have places you better not fall from, and this is part of the essence of trad climbing---performing in a cool and controlled manner when confronting a risky situation. Neutralizing danger, not just by protection skills, but also by climbing skills, is part of the game. (Unaulterated difficulty unencumbered by concerns of mortality is the province of sport climbing.)
Arguments about whether or not falling is a good idea always have these provisions: "if the gear is bomber, go for it," which is fair enough, but such pronouncements avoid the real problem by defining it out of existence. Many accidents happen when the bomber gear turns out not to be bomber. The climber (1) misjudged the pro (something that is quite possible for experts, let alone beginners), (2) failed to build sufficient redundancy into the system, and then (3) misjudged their ability and went for it in a situation when they were not well protected.
As for judging pro, I concur with the posters who recommend aid climbing. Redundancy is a state of mind combined with the will to carry it out. The most difficult issue is how to climb without falling when falling is a bad idea. (For example, if there is one piece between you and the ground and you can't back it up, then falling is a bad idea.) Here I think modern trends can inculcate bad habits. Gym climbing, sport climbing, and bouldering all emphasize moving up in the most marginal of situations. There is a risk of developing a tunnel-vision mentality that, first of all, accepts marginal moves even though the consequences of failure are catastrophic, perhaps not even noticing that the climber has gone from control to high risk status, and secondly, that blinds the climber to both the need and the opportunity to climb down to rest, regroup, and yes, in some cases, to retreat. Mental discipline is the primary tool for avoiding these situations, but this discipline is not something acquired in the gym or on sport climbs.
Here are some exercises that may be of some use:
(1) When climbing in the gym or on sport routes, try to be conscious of how marginal you are. (This does not mean reducing the difficulty level, just striving for heightened awareness.) From a trad perspective, falling may be ok, but an unexpected fall is not good. Know when you are on the edge.
(2) A lot of falls on steep ground happen when the leader runs out of gas. Try to develop a sense of your "half-way point," because this is one of the moments when you have to decide whether to move up or down. For example, a gym exercise is to select a challenging route and then see how high on it you can get and still climb all the way back down without falling.
(3) Develop the mental habit of filing away "retreat data." This can make the difference between stepping down and falling. (For example, when you step over a small roof, the holds underneath disappear. Did you make a mental note of features above the roof that will help you locate the holds underneath?)
(4) Don't neglect the building of a base of climbing below your limit, climbing in which you are relatively comfortable but are also frequently in the "must not fall" zone. A steady diet of well-protected hard climbing at or near your limit, while essential for raising your climbing level, may shortchange you on control and calmness when things get dicey, as they will, sooner or later..."
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/62477
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tgreene
Apr 18, 2005, 5:49 PM
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Last spring, when I began climbing again, I was seconding a fantastic climb in Seneca (Le Gourmet Direct)...
While this particular climb was pretty straight forward yet pushy (good rests were few and far between ), the gear placements were bomber. All of a sudden, I come up and around the flake, only to discover that my partner had left about 1/2 of his rack behind... He literally had shit stuffed everywhere! I yelled up at him asking WTF, and his response was that he suddenly felt sketched, and chose to start plugging karma pieces, because a fall at that point, would be a disaster with a huge chance up pulling gear. After removing 4-5 pieces within that 3-4 foot section, I was able to look back and see exactly why he did what he did.
To this day, when in doubt, I'll plug everything... The down side to this though, is that I was once faced with a 30' sketchy run out from hell (2nd pitch of Meadows in Wilton, MO) that went around a corner and up a chossy wall, because my partner that was "only somewhat" familiar w/ the climb, gave me bad beta that led to me lightening my rack for this pitch. Unfortunately, I had used most of my gear at the midpoint, and when I got to the crux, I had to decide to plug my anchor pieces or pray and run it out. When my partner got to the top, he asked why I didn't place gear in the top section, so I told him to count what was on his rack! :wink:
That "5.5 pitch" turned pout to be a 5.8 chossy run out from hell... The anchor was bomber though! 8^)
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climberpunk
Apr 18, 2005, 6:15 PM
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I ABSOLUTELY say you should place gear with a more experienced leader before you start leading anything even remotely technical. Just get yourself to a crag, and offer yourself up as a belay slave- personally, I seconded around 20+ pitches before I picked up the sharp end on a multipitch climb.
Not only do you learn more about how they place gear, you get tons of hints for your oh-shit kit, and a chance to get comfortable climbing 500 feet off the ground before you do it on the sharp end.
I just dont see the need to rush into stuff before you can do it comfortably and really enjoy it. Numbers really don't matter, but leading things at YOUR LIMIT is really a lot more fun than leading a stairway.
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