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miklaw
Apr 22, 2005, 7:37 PM
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Has anyone actually broken a Friend stem? Or just bent them radically?
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avalon420
Apr 23, 2005, 4:00 AM
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Couldnt tell ya. I'm not (nor do i climb with) the type of idiots who mistreat their gear :lol:
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crazyakclimber
Apr 23, 2005, 4:13 AM
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dude... I hate it when my friends break. Especially from rock fall when they are belaying me! Damn that sucks!
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tradalltheway
Apr 23, 2005, 5:14 AM
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I convinced my friend to lead a 5.9 that was actually a .12. That broke him off. After I told him what i'd done he got all bent out of shape..............................so, Yes.
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littlejames
Apr 23, 2005, 8:10 AM
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I haven't actually done it myself, on account of how I tend to climb sport, but... There was a column in Issue 49 of Rock (Australian climbing magazine) with a story about a broken SLCD, containing a worrying photo by Neil Monteith (orangeoverhang). This was a #1.5 Technical Friend, apparently, placed in a shallow crack pointing out horizontally and then fallen on, and it is well and truly snapped.
I would scan-n-post the story, but I'm sure there's copyright issues, so I won't.
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ncclimber
Apr 23, 2005, 12:16 PM
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I was on Mordor Wall in NH at thanksgiving Their was a fixed flex freind on the bottom of the first pitch. Clipped it with my aiders stepped on it and kept going. Didn't think twice.
The next day when wrapping the route after finishing. Some guys where on the first pitch asked me if I used the piece.
I said "fixed cam hell yeah"
Apparently the leader clipped it and just gave it two shots with his foot to check it and the cable snapped where it attached to the lobes. Another little time bomb that I just avoided, luckly.
The cam was placed in a horizontal crack straight up from the bottom, no edges our anything. But no telling how long it had been fixed their.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2005, 2:03 PM
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I have the photo of the 1.5 technical friend that snapped in a short aid fall. The photo is on my hard drive with the article but I don't know how to put it into a post?
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edge
Apr 23, 2005, 3:04 PM
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I bought a full set of the original Friends in 1983(? +/-), each one bought and added over the whole 12 month period as my expences would allow. Basically, these are identical to the Forged Friends.
I ended up with almost a triple set over the course of the next three years, mainly due to an uncanny ability to un-stick abandoned gear. If I anticipated a Gunks trip, I would include hero loops on the stem to redirect the load. Otherwise, business as usual.
After catching numerous whippers, being individually placed thousands of times, I can now honestly say that I need to do my first trigger wire replacement, on one single cam. The rest are still fine.
I call that a fair return for my investment, and a BELL RINGING ENDORSEMENT.
Of course the flexi-friends are the new black, so only buy the forged if you are oblivious to the taunts of your (obviously unedumacated) "friends."
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2005, 3:40 PM
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I am a bit disturbed by that failuer of a flexable friend and then another failure on mordor. As edge said I have never heard of a rigid friend failing.
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dingus
Apr 23, 2005, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: I am a bit disturbed by that failuer of a flexable friend and then another failure on mordor. As edge said I have never heard of a rigid friend failing.
No criticism implied here, but this highlights the general misconcpetion about the infailability of flexible stems in general.
Rigid stem friends tend not to get bent or broken over edges because those of us who use them try very, very hard not to place them that way.
Whereas a lot of flexie users will stick them into less than optimal placements not necessarily aware that flexible cams break over edges as well. So do nut wires as well, btw.
A rigid stem with a 'hero' or gunks tie off is considered superior for 'over the edge' placements by more than a few climbers. So if you climb at areas where there are lots of shallow horizontal placements? You owe it to yourselves to give the matter a lot of thought.
Cheers
DMT
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edge
Apr 23, 2005, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am a bit disturbed by that failuer of a flexable friend who knows how long the techfriend was fixed before ncclimber used it. if it was repeatedly loaded on aid in a horizontal, the cable could have gotten really worked over a few years. nothing to panic about, just inspect fixed gear before you clip it.
Precisely.
I remember doing a climb on Upper Cathedral that had a fixed rigid stem friend that basically looked like someone had wailed on it with a hammer a couple of dozen times. In passing, I clipped it anyway, because, well, why not? I had good gear both above and below it.
Two days later, back at Camp 4, I told someone what route we had done. He mentioned the cam, and I told him we had saw it. It turns out that it was his, and as soon as he had placed it, he knew it would be a bitch to get out. He yelled for his second to use all manner of mischief to retrieve it, so the second pocketed a good size rock from the belay ledge. When he couldn't remove it, even after hanging, he pounded the shit out of it.
I asked, "why?"
His response was, "If I couldn't get it out, then I didn't wan't anyone else to get it either.
Brilliant.
No, not really. As for the bottom line on any fixed gear, be it rivets, tat, stoppers, or cams, my first line of defense is a visual inspection. In the above case, if I thought the flexi-cam looked mank, then I would have eased onto my aiders and if it held, I would have moved on. To multiply the forces many times over by clipping and jumping on an aid piece is appropriate at times, and other times foolhardy. It is an unprecise science.
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gunkiemike
Apr 23, 2005, 4:59 PM
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I think RGold oce said he has evidence of a stem breaking.
As for the piece on Mordor Wall, the story we have in this thread is that the CABLE broke. The cable is not the stem. The cable is not load bearing. A broken cable does not weaken the placement. The cable is not the issue.
I used a hammer and a crow bar once to remove a very old Friend from a crack. The stem took a HUGE amount of abuse without even bending. That is very, very strong alloy that is used there.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2005, 5:28 PM
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the mordor cam was fixed for a long time so its failuer though NOT good is somwhat excuseable. the austrailian failure from the pictuer looks like a pretty new cam in a typical marginal placement. the cable snapped off where it was connected to the camming unit. it was too shallow of a placement for the cable to run over an edge. pretty unnaceptable failure INMOP If someone knows how to get the picture into a thread I can email it to you. It is verry eye opening :shock:
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iltripp
Apr 23, 2005, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: A rigid stem with a 'hero' or gunks tie off is considered superior for 'over the edge' placements by more than a few climbers.
I've never used rigid stems and never done this. Is there a particular way to do it or do you just tie a sling or loop of cord to the stem and clip that? I guess it's just hard to picture without having the piece and the placement in front of me.
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dingus
Apr 23, 2005, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: the mordor cam was fixed for a long time so its failuer though NOT good is somwhat excuseable. the austrailian failure from the pictuer looks like a pretty new cam in a typical marginal placement. the cable snapped off where it was connected to the camming unit. it was too shallow of a placement for the cable to run over an edge. pretty unnaceptable failure INMOP If someone knows how to get the picture into a thread I can email it to you. It is verry eye opening :shock:
I looked for a pic on line recently and couldn't find one.
Freedom of the Hills has a pic of a friend rigged this way. A cord is tied through one of the holes above the trigger. A picture is worth about 10,000 Dingus words however.
More.
Unless it was faked, which others assure me is always the case, hoho.
DMT
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littlejames
Apr 23, 2005, 5:33 PM
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I'm probably wrong (it's late, I'm tired) but I think the kind of tie-off they refer to is attaching a sling as close to the actual head of the cam as possible. That way, the sling is bent over the edge and actually pulls the cam outwards, as opposed to putting leverage on the end of the rigid stem, which can snap it.
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iltripp
Apr 23, 2005, 5:38 PM
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Hmm... I was under the impression that the sling still pulled downward, but that it reduced torque by shortening the axis.
But... what do I know?...
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dirtineye
Apr 23, 2005, 5:43 PM
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A friend of mine who was once refered to as, "a hobbit-like creature", told me stories of finding ridgid-stem friends bent 90 degrees, and also he found some broken off completely.
I doubt the gunks tie-off was in use on these friends.
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hex
Apr 23, 2005, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Hmm... I was under the impression that the sling still pulled downward, but that it reduced torque by shortening the axis. But... what do I know?...
it depends how deep the cam is placed in the crack, if its deep then the sling will run out and down effectively pulling the cam outwards but if its a shallow placement then the sling pulls down and there is a torquing effect on the rigid stem.
here is a pic of a friend with the tie-off:
http://www.chockstone.org/...edFriendSize2_1l.jpg
from http://www.chockstone.org
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rgold
Apr 23, 2005, 9:39 PM
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In addition to my attempt in the thread cited above to list the advantages and disadvantages of rigid stems friends with Gunks tie-off loops, I mentioned that the stems can break if tie-offs aren't used. I saw someone break one at the top of Transcontinental Freeway on maybe a factor 0.1 fall. I am positive, from analogous experiences, that a tied-off rigid stem friend would have held the fall no problem.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2005, 1:38 AM
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The picture of the broken flexable friend I scaned from an austrailian magazine with the accompanying article. I know that it is copywrited but in the interest of public saftry it is a good thing to discuss. I would post it if I knew how or email it to someone who could post it?
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angry
Apr 24, 2005, 1:48 AM
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The last time I did Edwards Crack in Vedauwoo (4 or so years ago), there was a fixed rigid friend that was broken off.
I don't know what happened, it's a beginner route that fixes a cam every other week in the same spot. Newbs love to slam in a cam instead of a perfect stopper 6 inches lower for the 5.6 crux. The locals are pretty vigilant about bootying these things, they always come out. I'm guessing one of them got pissed and took a crowbar to it, it'd be unlikely to fall right there.
The rigid friends are very similar to the forged friends, they just aren't as strong.
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slobmonster
Apr 24, 2005, 3:14 AM
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I'm familiar with the piece on the Mordor Wall. To be honest, last time I was up there I remember seeing a CLOG label on it (which may or may not make a difference, really). It was on the right-hand side of the flexi-flake of P1, yes? Good lord, it had been there for at least four winters.
I'm just happy the thing finally came out...
My friends who have spent time guiding in the Gunks swear by rigid-stem Friends, to this day. Using fancier, pricier, flexible-stem units just tweaks the crap out of them.
But back to this discussion: the early-generation "Tech Friends" (from the nineties; not older flexible-stem units, but rather the newer ones with plastic all over the place) had a certain reputation for... unreliability. I've seen one that simply fell apart. But let's keep this between friends and not get all freaky-deeky regarding Wild County UK.
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