|
evergreen
Jun 30, 2002, 2:20 AM
Post #1 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 31, 2002
Posts: 43
|
It is from the super topo page about the death in Zion in May
http://www.supertopos.com/climbing/thread.html?m=4480&f=0&b=0
[ This Message was edited by: evergreen on 2002-07-04 09:51 ]
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jul 3, 2002, 4:19 AM
Post #2 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
This is damn sad and a reminder of the awesome job RC.com and the many great posters here give in diseminating info.
Heres a link to some testing of this knot, the figure 8. Bottom line: use a double fishermans knot or an overhand and leave enough tail so's it's not you cratering next time.
Following from Fish site: http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html
Subject: Euro Death Knot Testing
Date - Wed Nov 10 16:23:52 1999
From: Tom Moyer
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
I know this has been the subject of lots of flaming already, but since I
actually have some information (not that that's really a requirement for
posting on rec.climbing), here goes ...
I learned this weekend at the International Technical Rescue Symposium
that the figure eight version of the Euro Death Knot is being actively
taught to climbers in Canada. I had thought that only the overhand
version was in widespread use and that everyone pretty much recognized
the figure eight to have the potential to be a really quick trip to the
bottom of the crag.
For those who don't know what this knot is, check out the drawings at
http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/tech/techframe.html
Failure of the figure eight version of this knot has already caused a
fatality in1994 at Seneca Rocks and an accident in 1995 in Salt Lake.
Both of these knots would politely be called "mis-loaded" and impolitely
would be called, well - the "Euro Death Knot". The failure mode for the
figure eight version is to flip/invert/capsize, which then becomes the
identical twin of the first knot, just with shorter tails. After enough
of these events there are no tails left and the knot fails. Leaving at
least a foot of tail is recommended.
I spent a few hours yesterday in my front yard with a come-a-long and a
load cell to try to get some decent information on this. The results
still leave room for plenty of argument. People who don't like the
figure eight will say, "See, it slips at really low loads!" People who
do like it will say, "See, if you dress it right, pretension it well,
and leave long tails, it doesn't fail. Besides, I've been using it for
years and I'm still alive!"
If you're too impatient to wade through the results below, the short
answer is that if you do all those things, you should be ok. My question
is - why would you take the chance? If you're in a situation where a
stuck rope would be catastrophic, use the overhand. It has all the same
advantages and not nearly as much risk.
Be safe - the body we have to scape off the rock may be yours.
- Tom Moyer
Salt Lake County Search and Rescue
Rope A: Mammut 11 mm static - used
Rope B: Unknown manufacturer red 11 mm dynamic - used
Rope C: ABC/Sterling 11 mm static - new
Rope D: Blue Water II+ 11 mm static - new
Rope E: ABC 8mm static - new
Rope F: 1" Tubular Webbing
Test #1: RopeA/RopeA - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned
Capsized at 750 lb, Rope broke at 2520 lb
Test #2: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned
Capsized at 590 lb, Capsized at 2280 lb, Rope broke at 2560 lb
Test #3: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed, pretensioned loosely
Capsized at 290 lb, Stopped Test at 2800 lb
Test #4: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - sloppy, crossing strands and loose
Capsized at 110 lb, Capsized at 140 lb, Capsized at 340 lb,
Capsized at 420 lb, Capsized at 530 lb, Stopped Test at 2500 lb
Test #5: RopeB/RopeB - overhand - well dressed and pretensioned
Capsized at 1400 lb, Capsized at 1940 lb, Capsized at 1990 lb,
Rope Broke at 2070 lb
Test #6: RopeA/RopeA - overhand - well dressed and pretensioned
Stopped Test at 2540 lb
Test #7: RopeC/RopeC - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned
Stopped Test at 2500 lb
Test #8: RopeD/RopeD - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned
Capsized at 2170 lb, Stopped Test at 2550 lb
Test #9: RopeB(11mm)/RopeE(8mm) - figure 8 - well dressed and
pretensioned
Capsized at 1330 lb, Capsized at 1550 lb, 8mm broke at 2700 lb
Test #10: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned - WET
Capsized at 470 lb, Rope broke at 2790 lb
Test #11: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed, pretensioned loosely -
WET
Capsized at 290 lb, Rope broke at 2470 lb
Test 12: RopeF/RopeF (webbing) - well dressed and pretensioned
Webbing broke at 2070 lb
*EOM*
Some of those low figures would definatly have my fat ass laying in a heap at the bottom.
Regards:
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
cedk
Jul 3, 2002, 4:15 PM
Post #3 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2001
Posts: 516
|
Fig 8 with tales on opposite ends is safe though right?
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jul 4, 2002, 4:20 AM
Post #4 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
CEDC: Might want to re-read the middle part there.
Although it was never a mainstay for me, I shudder to think of all the times in the past I have used the figure 8 for connecting 2 ropes together so casually.
Cya
|
|
|
|
|
wallhammer
Jul 4, 2002, 5:02 AM
Post #5 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2001
Posts: 265
|
sorry i am slow in the head on this one. it appears to me that the fig 8 knot with both tails coming out the same end is the cause of the fatalities. ( this has always been taught to me as a no no) a figure 8 with the tails coming out opposite ends has been taught to me as acceptable. what i am not understanding is where on the chart it is showing the difference of failing between the two fig 8s. (i am looking at the center of the chart and still not catching on) please elaborate
[ This Message was edited by: wallhammer on 2002-07-03 22:03 ]
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Jul 4, 2002, 6:03 AM
Post #6 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
Thanx for the info.
re: the title of this thread, please read this.
rrrADAM
|
|
|
|
|
nabisco
Jul 4, 2002, 6:19 AM
Post #7 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 16, 2001
Posts: 38
|
Tying ropes together using a figure 8 w/ tails on opposite sides or 2 fig 8's tied into each other( loop 2 loop)is, in my opinion, the only reasonable method, of connecting ropes for rappels. Bomb proof!!! 8's have become the climbers standard for a reason. They are reliable and easy to inspect. Yes, it's a bulky but with a little care you can avoid most snaggs. Counting on an overhand to cease rolling over after two or three rolls sounds ranther frivolous. Just because others have gotten away with the overhand, is'nt reasonable grounds for testing my luck w/ how much extra tail I should allott to compensate for knot rollover.
|
|
|
|
|
biggernhell
Jul 5, 2002, 8:51 PM
Post #8 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2002
Posts: 563
|
Thanks for the info. I've always used the triple fishermans myself. Sure it can snag a bit, but its a hell of a lot more bomber than either version of the euro death knot. As a matter of fact, I have never had a triple fishermans snag so badly that I couldn't wiggle it out from the bottom of the rope. The only time that I've had to resort to climbing up to free a stuck rope was also the only time that I rappeled off of a euro overhand death knot. I was with a new partner and he actually untied my fishermans and retied the ropes with a euro death knot. I guess he did it trying to keep the ropes from sticking. To bad they did any way. Needless to say we haven't climbed together since.
|
|
|
|
|
knotrocket
Jul 7, 2002, 11:37 PM
Post #9 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 26, 2002
Posts: 64
|
Ok, I'm lost here, and I can't get the Petzl deal to go...
The knot that is being referred to, is that the Fig. 8 "bend"? i.e. the ends joined by facing them together and following thru one 8 with the other end? When done the ends will be on opposite sides of the knot, with safeties...
--------OO----------
Or is it tying a Fig 8 with the two ends, as they are facing each other? When done this knot will have the ends on the same side, and the resultant pull on the two working ends will be at a 90 deg. angle to the knot...
__________8__________
I'm prolly not clear.
|
|
|
|
|
greatgarbanzo
Jul 8, 2002, 12:56 AM
Post #10 of 10
(3304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2001
Posts: 360
|
Bottom line:
----OO---- with safety knots O.K.
----8---- NEVER AGAIN!!!!
Still with doubts??? use a triple fisherman knot
|
|
|
|
|
|
