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healyje
Apr 26, 2005, 7:43 AM
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In reply to: [youll have to find whoever bolted that thing to find out why he did it. maybe he jsut decided it wasnt worth the bother to bring trad gear on what was already a climb with bolts so he decided to bolt it completely while he had the gear at hand. and one more point, you dont have to clip them if you dont want to :wink:
Oh, they couldn't be bothered to bring out a trad rack, but could bring out a drill and bolt a crack? This sort of thinking, logic, and ethics you can keep in Slovenia as far as I'm concerned :wink:
Bottom line - anytime a protectable crack gets bolted it means someone is too lazy or too stupid to use a cam and instead has decided to vandalize the rock for the sake of personal convenience. It doesn't matter what type of area it is. It's a crack - have a little self-respect and stick a cam in it, it isn't rocket science...
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nonick
Apr 26, 2005, 8:03 AM
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In the areas where people climb here near Bombay, the rock is crap. As a result many times gear placed in a crack wont hold even the slighest of falls. Hence, most routes are bolted...
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guangzhou
Apr 26, 2005, 10:27 AM
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I've seen the crack, and the whole wall it's on is nothing both sport routes, so I see no problem with bolting it. Of course, by the same accord, many of those great face sport climbs could and have been climb on gear. They actually protect quite well and I don't here you starting a thread about those.
The problem is that some people think that a route has to be a crack to be a gear route.
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overlord
Apr 26, 2005, 11:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: [youll have to find whoever bolted that thing to find out why he did it. maybe he jsut decided it wasnt worth the bother to bring trad gear on what was already a climb with bolts so he decided to bolt it completely while he had the gear at hand. and one more point, you dont have to clip them if you dont want to :wink: Oh, they couldn't be bothered to bring out a trad rack, but could bring out a drill and bolt a crack? This sort of thinking, logic, and ethics you can keep in Slovenia as far as I'm concerned :wink: Bottom line - anytime a protectable crack gets bolted it means someone is too lazy or too stupid to use a cam and instead has decided to vandalize the rock for the sake of personal convenience. It doesn't matter what type of area it is. It's a crack - have a little self-respect and stick a cam in it, it isn't rocket science...
read carefully, it was no wholly protectable. and i really dont like "mixed" climbs. well, there are exeptions where a bolt is used here and there to eliminate a dangerous runout, but if the route has whole sections that you cant protect with traditional gear i really dont see any point of not puting a few bolts next to the protectable parts. but this dillema has to be solved for each route individually because the circumstances vary greatly. you cant say that you would never put a bolt were you could use a cam. what it its just 3ft of protectable crack and everything else is not protectable???
both kind of ppl piss me off. the ones who would bolt everything they see and the onse whod strip every bolt they see.
and, btw, though im a promarily sports climber, i wouldnt bolt a protectable crack. even here :wink:
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piton
Apr 26, 2005, 12:33 PM
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if the climb takes pro i give you full permission to chop. f***ing grid bolting pansies. sport climbing is for noobs. :lol:
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janjaf
Apr 26, 2005, 1:00 PM
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Piton, surely you're joking? How could your opinion grant someone the right to ruin the efforts of someone else?
I think, perhaps i don't agree with the entire trad vs sport philosophy here.
In my experience, the two have little in common. Trad is slow, adventurous, meditative, intensely so, and requires constant judging whether you should place pro, move on and run it out, all based on a number of careful estimates.
Sport is a fast, intense activity, where you may fall a lot, and hangdog, redpoint, etc etc etc, all that stuff the ethics of the 60es frown upon. Because this is supposed to be fun and "carefree" (relatively).
When you bolt a crack at a sportscrag, you shouldn't consider this a potential trad route ruined. Imagine a big green field in a park i some town. Now, someone puts up two soccer-goal. Should we cry out in anguish:"Oh no! There's a perfect tenniscourt ruined!" ? Of course not, because its just one kind of sport, that got to use the place first. In the same way, should we consider the crags: they are used for two fundamentally different kinds of climbing, and claiming that one is more pure, or original or whatever makes little sense.
I don't consider trad or sport inferior/superior forms of climbing, They are different activities, i do both, and i can't see why anyone should be outraged by ANY bolts in a sports area, just as surely as we should all be outraged by ALL bolts in trad area.
:D
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asandh
Apr 26, 2005, 2:43 PM
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:)
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healyje
Apr 26, 2005, 2:50 PM
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In reply to: and, btw, though im a promarily sports climber, i wouldnt bolt a protectable crack. even here :wink:
Glad to hear it...
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alpinerockfiend
Apr 26, 2005, 3:15 PM
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In reply to: When you bolt a crack at a sportscrag, you shouldn't consider this a potential trad route ruined. Imagine a big green field in a park i some town. Now, someone puts up two soccer-goal. Should we cry out in anguish:"Oh no! There's a perfect tenniscourt ruined!" ? Of course not, because its just one kind of sport, that got to use the place first. In the same way, should we consider the crags: they are used for two fundamentally different kinds of climbing, and claiming that one is more pure, or original or whatever makes little sense.
In reply to: I don't consider trad or sport inferior/superior forms of climbing, They are different activities, i do both, and i can't see why anyone should be outraged by ANY bolts in a sports area, just as surely as we should all be outraged by ALL bolts in trad area. |
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caughtinside
Apr 26, 2005, 3:32 PM
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I did a 160' climb at Owens last fall that was a bolted crack. Never any smaller than fists. Really fun climb. I thought it was more fun that I only had a rack of draws, instead of a rack of big gear.
Don't believe in absolutes.
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jt512
Apr 26, 2005, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: [youll have to find whoever bolted that thing to find out why he did it. maybe he jsut decided it wasnt worth the bother to bring trad gear on what was already a climb with bolts so he decided to bolt it completely while he had the gear at hand. and one more point, you dont have to clip them if you dont want to :wink: Oh, they couldn't be bothered to bring out a trad rack, but could bring out a drill and bolt a crack? This sort of thinking, logic, and ethics you can keep in Slovenia as far as I'm concerned :wink: Bottom line - anytime a protectable crack gets bolted it means someone is too lazy or too stupid to use a cam and instead has decided to vandalize the rock for the sake of personal convenience. It doesn't matter what type of area it is. It's a crack - have a little self-respect and stick a cam in it, it isn't rocket science...
I hate rehashing this topic, but the trads just don't get it. Consider Wmson Rock, a typical sport climbing area where > 99% of the routes are unprotectable, except by bolts. Wmson has, say, 250 routes, with an average of say 8 bolts each. That's 2000 bolts at the crag. Clearly, adding 16 bolts to the crag by bolting the two crack routes cannot be considered "vandalizing" the crag. I can understand how somebody could consider placing 2000 bolts at a crag to be "vandalization," but adding 16 more bolts to a sport crag is insignificant, and permits 2 additional routes to be climbed without taking an otherwise unnecessary trad rack to a sport crag.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 26, 2005, 6:56 PM
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[partial duplicate post caused by malfunctioning board]
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alpinerockfiend
Apr 27, 2005, 3:09 AM
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In reply to: I hate rehashing this topic, but the trads just don't get it.
In reply to: Clearly, adding 16 bolts to the crag by bolting the two crack routes cannot be considered "vandalizing" the crag. I can understand how somebody could consider placing 2000 bolts at a crag to be "vandalization," but adding 16 more bolts to a sport crag is insignificant, and permits 2 additional routes to be climbed without taking an otherwise unnecessary trad rack to a sport crag. |
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jt512
Apr 27, 2005, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: If your lines are indeed protectible with natural gear, then why slap bolts into them just to add 2 more routes to a crag that already has 250?
That makes no sense. There would be 252 routes either way.
In reply to: Why not preserve the routes for those willing to haul the rack up and do them as natural lines?
Because no one in his right mind brings a trad rack to a sport crag to trad climb the only two gear routes. People interested in trad climbing have infinitely better options in SoCal. The routes would not get done.
Now let me turn your question around: Why not bolt the routes for the benefit of the thousands of sport climbers who frequent the crag.
-Jay
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healyje
Apr 27, 2005, 3:30 AM
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Case in point, I was in Spokane this weekend and happen to drive by Dishman and got to finally see it, though unfortunately not climb it. A beautiful piece of rock in an suburban setting and I walked the length of it and was pleasantly surprised at the high quality of route after route. The rock is granite and most of the routes are entirely bolted as the rock has few cracks. Every bolt on it was legitimate except two. And those were glaringly inappropriate right next to bombproof easy pro in a deep hand size arching crack (I believe the climb was Klingon). There was absolutely no justification for them beyond not wanting to bother with a couple of cams and that's just lame as is whomever is writing the names of the routes on the rock with a black marker. Both are infantile and completely unnecessary.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2005, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: Case in point, I was in Spokane this weekend and happen to drive by Dishman and got to finally see it, though unfortunately not climb it. A beautiful piece of rock in an suburban setting and I walked the length of it and was pleasantly surprised at the high quality of route after route. The rock is granite and most of the routes are entirely bolted as the rock has few cracks. Every bolt on it was legitimate except two. And those were glaringly inappropriate right next to bombproof easy pro in a deep hand size arching crack (I believe the climb was Klingon). There was absolutely no justification for them beyond not wanting to bother with a couple of cams and that's just lame as is whomever is writing the names of the routes on the rock with a black marker. Both are infantile and completely unnecessary.
If you are making an argument at all, it relies on the fallacy of assuming the conclusion. You presume that bolts next to natural placements are illegitmate and then conclude that they are, essentially, illegitimate.
Your only justification for your claim that they are illegitimate is that cams could be placed there instead, but so what? What's so special about placing cams at a crag with exactly two cam placements at the entire crag. What is clearly "lame" is applying traditional climbing ethics to a sport crag. For the millionth time: sport crags have their own ethics.
-Jay
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alpinerockfiend
Apr 27, 2005, 4:12 AM
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Ahh, JT, I'm not going to cut and paste more quotes in order to continue the argument. I'm sure our time could be better spent (although for some reason, studying for finals seems to take the back seat :) ). Of course there still be 252 routes. I guess my implications weren't made clear enough: Leaving the two lines for natural gear protection would be a worthy contribution because of the opportunity to diversify the crag's experience. Believe it or not, many people actually enjoy placing gear over clipping bolts! Sure, there are ample trad areas in SoCal, but it sounds like there's ample sport climbing as well. Would leaving two climbs sans bolts to accomodate a small number trad climbers at a crag otherwise devoid of them be worth it? Sure! It would diversify the experience for everyone. Leave the trads asking why they put up with funky limestone gear placements and the bolt clipping wanks wondering about the shiny, colored metal implements that the trad climbers keep fiddling with and tugging on.
I know I'm going out on a limb. Chopping a bolted crack at a sport crag is probably a moot point. If the thing's already got bolts, it's probably because the movement is entertaining, it's a challenging testpiece, any number of reasons that make it popular. Therefore, it'll probably be rebolted, which sucks for both sides. But it's something to consider when developing a new crag.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2005, 4:20 AM
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In reply to: Ahh, JT, I'm not going to cut and paste more quotes in order to continue the argument. I'm sure our time could be better spent (although for some reason, studying for finals seems to take the back seat :) ). Of course there still be 252 routes. I guess my implications weren't made clear enough: Leaving the two lines for natural gear protection would be a worthy contribution because of the opportunity to diversify the crag's experience.
Leaving the two crags unbolted does not diversify the climbing experience at the crag. It leaves two lines that no one would climb, whereas bolting them adds two more routes for everyone's enjoyment. How do I know they wouldn't get climbed if left unbolted? I'll reveal my secret: they're not bolted, and in the six or seven years I've been climbing at this crag, I have not seen or heard of a single ascent of either route.
-Jay
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bobd1953
Apr 27, 2005, 4:31 AM
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Jay-why do you even try? It goes right over-their-heads and they just don't get it.
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ikefromla
Apr 27, 2005, 5:03 AM
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Jay.. I almost always agree with you. In fact, I think this may be the first time where we differ in opinion on the board... that I've noticed. And I also know that you have the benefit of the community and others' enjoyment in mind when you make your argument; however, if I knew of two safely protectable cracks at Williamson that were bolted, I would tote a rack down that goddamn scree-covered slope just for those two lines. I don't know why exactly I feel this way about the issue.. I'm a sport climber, and I generally understand all facets of the sport climbing mentality, but bolting a protectable crack just doesn't sit right with me in any context. Perhaps I get it from my grandfather and his tales of boldness from back when he was climbing with Pratt and Chouinard in the Valley. I dunno.
I reiterate though, I would never chop or pull the bolts on said protectable cracks. That just seems completely counterproductive to me.
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alpinerockfiend
Apr 27, 2005, 5:03 AM
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J, thanks for filling my study breaks with such entertaining responses to my posts! I know that the lines would go unclimbed. Your argument makes much more sense in terms of delivering quality lines to climbers, given the nature of a certain crag. That's why the few cracks at Sinks are bolted. Although I'm predominantly a trad climber, I certainly enjoy the hell out of climbing them when I'm down there, bolts and all.
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ikefromla
Apr 27, 2005, 5:07 AM
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In reply to: I'll reveal my secret: they're not bolted, and in the six or seven years I've been climbing at this crag, I have not seen or heard of a single ascent of either route.
what are the grades? My interest is peaked... I haven't been to Williamson in years (not since i finally did Stigmata) because, well, it's just not my favorite local LA area... but these would be an excuse.
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slobmonster
Apr 27, 2005, 5:30 AM
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it seems that the fallacy of assuming the conclusion might apply very well again, because (by some arguments) a given crag is better climbable (in your example, equipped with bolts) than not. this is not a surprise to me --and i know i won't win this "argument"-- but it just seems that by this logic we shall sequester our behavior due to location, and not ethics, aesthetics, or tradition. in this vein, i need no thematic or overarching "style" or even a persona that is my own; i simply need to act like whomever i want to imitate.
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rendog
Apr 27, 2005, 5:54 AM
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simply put:
If I were to ever see a person bolting a protectable crack, I would throw rocks at the offending party until they came down from they're perch. I would then proceed to stuff thier drill up thier asses and put in a bolt of my own.
a bolted protectable crack IMHO is stupid. if you can't climb it on gear under your own steam, go somewhere else.
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guangzhou
Apr 27, 2005, 6:09 AM
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Lots of people who know how to place gear still bolt protectable cracks. Many factors contribute, the main being the type of crag the area is.
It's not because someone put up sport routes that they don't climb trad, they are just smart enough to eccept change and have decided to not limit themselves to one disipline.
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