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Big wall cordellet?
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akclimber


Apr 27, 2005, 9:07 PM
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Big wall cordellet?
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Here's the deal. I have some cordellets I use for free climbing, they are 7 mm. In the future, I would like to do some walls. I have a 10.5mm rope that has a fair share of fraying, and I am about ready to retire it.

Now the question is: Couldn't I just chop it into 21ft or 24ft sections and use as a cordellet? Any one else do this? Any reason not to?

What do you guys use for a diamater cordellet on a wall?


cjstudent


Apr 27, 2005, 9:14 PM
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you plan on hanging 20ish feet of 10.5mm rope off your harness??

I plan on using my standard cordalette (7mm i think) in yos this summer when I go.


Partner climbinginchico


Apr 27, 2005, 9:14 PM
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That would take so much space it's not even funny.

I use a HUGE WildCountry 10mm Dyneema sling. And a 5mm tech cord cordelette. Love both, the sling is absolutely huge, great for more spread out anchors. It's also rated to 22 kn.


lovesclimbing


Apr 27, 2005, 9:26 PM
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dont use climbing rope for you cordellet, I did that once at the gym as a example for others and it is huge, heavy and bulky. Ether use sling or stick with your regular setup.


oldfart


Apr 27, 2005, 9:44 PM
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How about detaching your ass from the couch and trying it out for yourself?


cjstudent


Apr 27, 2005, 9:47 PM
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In reply to:
That would take so much space it's not even funny.

I use a HUGE WildCountry 10mm Dyneema sling. And a 5mm tech cord cordelette. Love both, the sling is absolutely huge, great for more spread out anchors. It's also rated to 22 kn.

Yea dude i use the same dynemma sling. Its freaking huge, and my partners hate it. But its real handy, like you said, in areas that your gear is spread out. This way you dont have to waste slings by lengthening out your anchor. And if the anchor is tight knit, just double it up. I love it!


Partner climbinginchico


Apr 27, 2005, 10:27 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
That would take so much space it's not even funny.

I use a HUGE WildCountry 10mm Dyneema sling. And a 5mm tech cord cordelette. Love both, the sling is absolutely huge, great for more spread out anchors. It's also rated to 22 kn.

Yea dude i use the same dynemma sling. Its freaking huge, and my partners hate it. But its real handy, like you said, in areas that your gear is spread out. This way you dont have to waste slings by lengthening out your anchor. And if the anchor is tight knit, just double it up. I love it!

A trick I learned for shortening it up is to tie an 8 on a bight on one arm, with the bar tacking on the bight hanging off the 8. This is if it's too short doubled up but too long regular. Thanks to Josh Wharton at RRR for this tidbit- comes in handy. I also learned a trick way to rack it that takes up hardly any space- that guy was awesome.


flamer


Apr 27, 2005, 11:41 PM
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For walls with bolted anchors(like all of the trade route's in the valley) I use 2 short cordellette's.....ten footers. I use either 5.5mm techie stuff or 7-8mm standard. Usually(a relative term!) when you get to a belay on a trade route in the ditch there are 3 bolts...hang a big locker in the middle...the an oval(or whatever- but the oval has more space should you want to clip another thing or 2 to it) on the 2 outside bolts. Then equalise both cordellette's indiviually through the middle locker and one of the outside lockers...this gives you 2 power points- one to fix/anchor yourself to, and one to haul from. For added organization you can stack the lines over the cord's.
The shorter version works better when you have bolts close together at the anchors....this is a very efficient way to use cord's on walls...it also helps to have designated "anchor kits" that will only be used for this...which obviously will include both the cord's and the biners needed.

HAVE FUN!!

josh


ammon


Apr 28, 2005, 12:53 AM
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Yep!! Too big and bulky.....

You would be better off tying a "Bunny Ear".... it's good!!

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/BunnyEars.htm


wbennett


Apr 28, 2005, 1:13 AM
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Jon come on


ricardol


Apr 28, 2005, 1:58 PM
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its already been answered ..

use the same cordalettes you are already using.

Big wall equipment is rarely specialized .. the same stuff you used in trad climbing.. gets used on el cap.

.. a big wall rack .. is usually just 2x a trad rack. (unless you're ammon and then his big wall rack is about 1/2 of a normal trad rack)


punk


Apr 28, 2005, 10:36 PM
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I know it is hard for you to let the rope go so here are three good uses for that dead rope
1 use it to extend the rappel
2 use it for lowering down the haul
3 use it to fix if it still OK and will hold a static load
The cordelett idea is dung


akclimber


Apr 28, 2005, 11:52 PM
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Alright, alright, the 7mm just seems a little skimpy to be hanging several hundred pounds from. You guys know more than I, guess I won't try.

Thanks for opinions,
Jon


Partner climbinginchico


Apr 28, 2005, 11:58 PM
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A 7mm cordolette will easily hold several hundred pounds. Actually, I would probably be comfortable hanging my car off a properly rigged anchor with 7mm perlon. Course, my car is under 2000 lb, but still.


climbingeek


Apr 29, 2005, 12:27 AM
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Using a dynamic cord for equalizing an anchor is a little scary. When hanging from it in your harness, you'll feel it stretch and bounce. If the cord runs across any section of rock, it can saw and abraid.

I do use 7/16" static cords for anchoring, but never on anything multipitch.


ricardol


Apr 29, 2005, 9:13 AM
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7mm cord is FINE for a cordalette ..

to save space i use 5mm titan-cord cordalettes..


climbhigher


Apr 29, 2005, 7:31 PM
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I believe blue water makes a killer cordalette. Its gemni (made out of a mix of kevalar and spectra) Its very thin and not bulky. Super strong. Its even hard to burn the stuff. Alot of times i will just clove hitch the fat bolts right in a roll without equalizing them. Gotta be really carefull not to create a clusterfuck when u do this. Not to turn this into an achor thread. But when i start typing i cant quit. Or sometimes I will create 2 power points with equalized slings. One for the belay. One for the haul bag. The speed climbers seem to clove hitch what ever is at the belay and use only one bolt to haul a light bag off of with the hauler attached right to the bolt. Ok i am off subject. Bye.


graniteboy


May 9, 2005, 3:16 PM
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AKclimber:
Part of the answer to this question depends on WHERE your bigwalls are...If you're say...in yosemite, or the kichatnas. But at any rate, I'd agree that a 20 ft chunk o' 10 mm is way overkill. Heavy, Bulky, bleah!!!
Use the 7mm or 8mm static cord, or the fancy 5.5 mm stuff. And remember; on the trade routes in the valley, a nice short cord works, but in the land of the midnite sun, shit gets crazy real fast sometimes, big long spread out anchor systems happen, and you might wanna bring a nice long one, as you were suggesting. but make a rug outta that old 10mm. Or cut it up and use it for a bow line on your raft.


iamthewallress


May 9, 2005, 4:18 PM
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In reply to:
I use 2 48" sewn loop runners at every belay, including when there are multiple haul bags. I don't see any advantage of a fat wad of perlon over a sewn runner--it merely takes up more space in biners, weighs more and takes up more space generally...

A web-o-lette or cordalette is nice when the placements need to be really far apart or the oak tree anchor is really a monster. Most walls that most people do tend to have closely spaced bolts provided for your ancoring convenience. Lately (on free climbs too), I've been using the really skinny Mammut dynema 48" runners since they don't take up much space and don't use as much webbing in the knot. I find that this can be the difference between being able to tie a knot or not. People complain that they wear out more quickly, but I haven't seen it yet. I'll just get freshies when this starts to happen with my own. I think they're worth it for the convenience of the low profile.


knudenoggin


May 9, 2005, 4:33 PM
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In reply to:
I'd agree that a 20 ft chunk o' 10 mm is way overkill. Heavy, Bulky, bleah!!!
Use the 7mm or 8mm static cord, or the fancy 5.5 mm stuff.
Frankly, I think that the proposal to use climbing rope qua anchor,
esp. one desired to have some equalizing, load-distributing qualities
makes good sense! --better than this supposed wonder cord about
which one reads much hype (please note the cautions previously posted
on this forum about thet wisdom of using no-stretch material!).

Who says that the 10.Xmm rope should be a cordelette in the sense
of being one big sling to be rigged? --rather, given its nature, it is the
right material for single-strand use: how long do you want the paradigmatic
3 arms to be? Make one piece about double that, and a 2nd piece that
(e.g., 24' in a sling is rigged w/3 arms of double material hence divided
by 6 = roughly metre-length arms; with a single climbing rope, you can
use one 6' & one 12' length for similar 3-armed reach). Working with
2 pieces (the double-armed & single-armed ropes) should make anchor
adjustment easier, as you'd likely equalize the dble.arms with a (less
bulky) Overhand or Fig.8 or Dble.Bowline, and run the single piece
through this knot to tie off, with fine adjustment.

On heavy loading, the stretch in the climbing line will ensure that all
anchors come into play--something not so certain with hi-mod material
giving maybe less than 1cm stretch at such loads! --and less shock to
the anchor placements, as well.

In reply to:
I believe Blue Water makes a killer cordelette. It's Gemini (made out of a mixtire of Kevlar and Spectra) It's very thin and not bulky. Super strong. It's even hard to burn the stuff.
Aramids don't burn (Kevlar, Technora, Twaron), and only char at quite
high temps; but the HMPE (Spectra, Dyneema) would be long gone,
being the least tolerant synthetic of heat. Not that either of these
materials could replace the good ol' relaxin' smoke got by that nice
trad. hemp, but ... ! (-; (Cf. Clyde Soles's Outdoor Knots for
further reading about rope materials, knots, and their uses.)

*knudeNoggin*


graniteboy


May 11, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to:
Frankly, I think that the proposal to use climbing rope qua anchor,
esp. one desired to have some equalizing, load-distributing qualities
makes good sense! --better than this supposed wonder cord about
which one reads much hype

Right....except that a big huge chunk of 10mm means weight..remember...this is Climbing. not car camping....and just 10 lbs on your rack cuts your pullup capacity in half. If you want stretch in the system (as you suggest)...you don't need to lug around an extra 2 lbs of 10mm. Just toss in a bunny ear, as Ammon suggested.

And remember where the guy who asked the question Lives....the Big land. Alaska. Not too many pre-rigged bigwall anchors in the Ruth Gorge.


knudenoggin


May 11, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to:
Right....except that a big huge chunk of 10mm means weight..remember...this is Climbing. not car camping....and just 10 lbs on your rack cuts your pullup capacity in half. If you want stretch in the system (as you suggest)...you don't need to lug around an extra 2 lbs of 10mm. Just toss in a bunny ear, as Ammon suggested.
Whoa, there, Graniteboy, you're thinking like a stonehead here.
A "big huge chunk of..." lots o' stuff will weigh mighty, but we're not talking
about that, but a replacement of about 7m of 7mm cordelette cord with say
5m of climbing rope (single-strand vice double-strand arms, with extra for
more knots & thicker rope). At approx. wgt.s of, resp., 31g/m & 70g/m, you get
a wgt. bump of maybe 100-130g. Just have one fewer Quarter-Pounder for breakfast.
As for getting the equalizing stretch via a bunny ear, that's a leap I don't follow.
*knudeNoggin*


graniteboy


May 11, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Hmmmmm....
I'm wondering....do you spend as much time being rude and insulting in person as you are in here???

Look, I've only been bigwalling for about 20 years, in a few ranges, and have only been up about 40 of them in the valley, so maybe over in Virginia, or Nebraska, the bahamas, or pee wee herman's armchair playhouse, or wherever you're from, they do things differently. But please try not to be so insulting. It becomes reciprocal.

What both Ammon and I are saying is that 10mm is weighty stuff. even if you're using single arm as opposed to double (both of which I've done, and prefer the thinner cord).

And yes, a bunny ear is a good solution that will put a little stretch into the situation. If you're gonna go off on the equalizing tangent, at least recognize that cordelettes aren't truly equalizing anyway.

And say hi to pee wee for me.


knudenoggin


May 12, 2005, 12:23 PM
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In reply to:
Hmmmmm....
I'm wondering....do you spend as much time being rude and insulting in person as you are in here???\
If that's your take on my posts, you must do selective reading
(and w/o consideration of your own--"car camping", was it?!).
But you DO know about how "it becomes reciprocal," right?
In reply to:
Look, I've only been bigwalling for about 20 years, ...
As though somehow this changes the math about cordage weights?
In reply to:
What both Ammon and I are saying is that 10mm is weighty stuff. even if you're using single arm as opposed to double (both of which I've done, and prefer the thinner cord).
And what I posted were the actual weights & implied differences,
as taken from www.bealplanet.com, e.g.. Which should clearly show
that your assertions of great weight (even) and esp. of greatly
increased weight are gratuitous exagerations. --esp. as many
who read this thread might have similar thoughts with retired ropes
thinner than the 10.5mm in question.
In reply to:
... an extra 2 lb.s ...
An entire 8m cordelette sling of 70g/m rope only weights 1.25#, let
alone being 2# "extra" vice the recommended popular 7mm cordelette.
(And note that you suggested "7-8mm" static line, which 8mm comes in
around 40g/m, for even a lesser difference.)
But I suggested that single-strand arms of the climbing rope be used,
and that shortens the overall length to (my estimate) about 5m, with
consequent lessening of weight (and perhaps some gain in ease of
set-up, adjustability). The asserted huge weighty difference amounts
to maybe a quarter pound--less by comparisons in which the popular
9.xmm single ropes might be used.
In reply to:
And yes, a bunny ear is a good solution that will put a little stretch into the situation. If you're gonna go off on the equalizing tangent, at least recognize that cordelettes aren't truly equalizing anyway.
Actually, quite the opposite of your implication, I alluded to past threads
on exactly this point, where I and others remarked that much shift at
all from a precisely centered load angle would put all of the force upon
just one arm of a cordelette if using hi-modulus cordage (which will
have negligible elongation at likely impact loads). And the assertion
of much shock absorbtion from knot compression is more myth than
fact, according to, I believe, Clyde Soles, whose looked into that;
there just isn't enough material in the knot to matter.

.:. The thrust of my contention is that if using a cordelette or similar
anchor structure is intended to benefit from multiple anchor points
(i.p., to protect individually weak points by sharing load), it seems
best to use material that stretches under load sufficient to ensure
that all points are involved; that the very light-weight, very strong
(until knotted!) new hi-modulus cordage of HMPE, aramids, or Vectran,
are dubious solutions to this anchor need because of their very low
elongation (<4% at rupture!); that at the relatively short lengths
often used (~=1m per arm), climbing rope seems a better material.
Possible counter indications are excessive stretch, & danger of impact
of pulled-out hardware.

*knudeNoggin*


climbhigher


May 12, 2005, 11:10 PM
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Hey Noggin, Sounds like you need to go out and climb more. I am no engineer and I don't over analyze all the dynamics and forces applyed to the anchor when you fall while climbing. I do know one thing. Blue water makes that cordalette specificly for building anchors and they stand by there product. It's not a gimmic. It's only 5 mm and not bulky and super strong. No its not very dynamic and does not streatch much. Why does it need to? Give me more of your engineering ideas? i want to know. Personally when it comes down to it. I trust my climbing skills and a basic working knowledge of ropes like having your anchor being Solid, Equalized, Redundant and having No extentionsion,more then all your engineering nonsense that climbing companies have researched over and over again. And i would not give any advice at all if i have not been climbing for 15 + years with many grade VI and even many more grade V's sends. I truely like to help people out and give them some ideas
I think its important to have a big bag of tricks when setting up an anchor. A cordalette is one of them, cloving hitching your pro right in a row is another using the bunny ears with your climbing rope is another. The sliding X has it's advantages. So does the figure eight or overhand knot. Hell, even just using a bowline on a coil around your waist and using a hip belay and pining your self behind a rock as an anchor is legit under some circumstances. But hell what do i know i am drunk.

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