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slablizard
Apr 28, 2005, 6:45 PM
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Josh= JTree?
And no, if I climb with you man I want to climb cracks and learn.
In reply to: Hello Slablizard; Yes, I have a sense of humor, and I'll be glad to climb with you anytime if you are down here in the apple valley,or Josh area. and I promise I'll stay off your 12c climbs. LOL. 12c Is out of the range of this old gimpy geezer nowadays. Cosmiccragsman |
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trevzilla
Apr 28, 2005, 6:53 PM
Post #102 of 137
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So, Sungam, to answer your question. . .
Looks like no one really knows what trad is!
:P
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euroford
Apr 28, 2005, 7:49 PM
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i know what this thread needs! another stupid arse opinion!! yeah!!
i don't really care if i'm right or wrong, this is just the way i look at it.
though i'm quite against bolting, the method of protection is not pertinent to whether a climb is 'trad' or 'sport' in my opinion.
Trad:
in trad climbing the point is climbing to the top. two (or maybe three) guys (or girls) show up at the bottom with whatever gear is necessary and the leader sets off placing gear or clipping bolts as necessary to protect falls as dictated by the requirments of the route. your done climbing when all members of the climbing party and all gear and ropes have reached the end of the technical difficulties. you then decend as required.
this would include whats commonly known as trad climbing, alpine climbing or aid climbing.
sport:
in sport climbing, the point is ascending a line purely for the challenge of a specific set of features. gear is largly already in place, the climbs don't usually go to a 'summit' and sometimes not even to what would logicly be the end of the climbing. rather than finishing on the top the leader will frequently just clip some anchors and have the balayer lower them.
this would include bolted sport lines, bouldering, most M climbing, some ice climbing and even some 'gear' climbing (indian creek comes to mind).
trad = getting to the top
sport = just for the challange
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golsen
Apr 28, 2005, 8:30 PM
Post #104 of 137
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truly a sad state of affairs, this, the lack of understanding of what "trad" means".
Many people have thus far presented a definition that stems from an understanding of history. rgold I thinks tried to indicate this.
Some of you seem to think that wherever a bolt is, there is the possibility for some other type of pro...No offense, but if you truly believe this then there are only two possibilities.
1. You are ignorant and have not enough experience to comment.
2. You are using some type of pro not previously marketed nor explained.
I hate to think that dingus is correct in that it means whatever you (the new generation) thinks, simply because to me I equate that philosophy with a degradation of understanding the history of the sport of rockclimbing.
Bolting on lead was something that was an acceptable tool, and still accepted. Is the NOSE not a "trad" climb? If the final bolt ladder was not trad, then would it have been acceptable for Warren to say, "hey, its late, I am tired, send me down a ladder for this last pitch, it is a bitch." This should help differentiate the difference between trad and sport.
Sport climbing originally came into being because there were some very good and climbable lines that were not being led, because placing pro either was not possible, or because the generation that wanted to climb these did not have the kahuna's to lead them ground up. (Myself included and dont take this as a negative comment).
The point is that the early "trad" climbers, used the tools they had to climb ground up on the rock that was presented them. Many routes bolted ground up were done before CAMS (BC). So as jay presented, perhaps trad means BC. Now where would that put everyone?
I really think the thing that galls us older climbers that learned to climb before trad became a definition (BT), is that some of you seem to think that old bolted slab routes are SPORT. This was not how sport climbing developed and definitely not how we used to think of it.
It used to be a huge part of climbing that there were greater risks. Those that faced those risks of bolting on lead, know what I am talking about. When sport climbing came about, it minimized those risks for the sake of movement over the rock. And while that is in and of itself a wonderful reward, the act of facing and overcoming risk is also a reward. I guess to me, when new climbers come forth and call bolted trad climbs sport, it seems to negate those risks and does not acknowledge them.
Based on this thread, it seems as though I will still cringe when someone asks if I am a trad climber......
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cosmiccragsman
Apr 28, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #105 of 137
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I AM a Trad climber. I AM a Sport climber.= I AM A CLIMBER.....
cosmiccragsman
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crimpandgo
Apr 28, 2005, 9:08 PM
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Is it possible that people really don't care what the definition of "trad" or "sport" is? who really cares and why do you care. Does it make the climb different? Well, yes to a point... Do you feel more like a man (or women) to know the difference?
I am not argueing either way because frankly I don't care. If I see a climb that looks fun, I want to climb it, doesn't matter really if its its trad or sport. Really I am not gonna walk up and say "oh, joe said its trad, I better not do it"
After reading some of these posts, I think people are more concerned about what type of protection you need to climb. Do you need passive active protection? or do you need draws. If a climb is bolted, I ask "how many draws do I need". I don't ask "is it trad or not".
Please,, continue argueing at will :)
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jv
Apr 29, 2005, 3:42 PM
Post #107 of 137
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Golsen, re: your April 28 post -- well said.
JV
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dingus
Apr 29, 2005, 4:44 PM
Post #108 of 137
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In reply to: After reading some of these posts, I think people are more concerned about what type of protection you need to climb.
It comes down to different sets of people using the same made up word for different reasons.
Ya gots your noobs and youngsters that use the word 'trad' to denote gear. And ya gots your oldsters who feel compelled to point out the tradition part of the word 'trad.'
And ya gots your obtuse fuckers that refuse to understand that Crest Jewel is a trad route, even though they have yet to climb it, lol!
Its all good, like you say.
DMT
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azrockclimber
Apr 29, 2005, 5:16 PM
Post #109 of 137
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In reply to: In reply to: I think it is rediculous that there is no gray area that is something other than sport or trad rock climbing. umm can't it be a bolted route. I think it is ridiculous that you can't get it through your head that since bolt were used before the invention of sport climbing that bolts can't be the sole factor that defines a sport climb. Did you move to Pennsylvania just to be among like-minded gumbies? In reply to: When I talk to some of the old hardasses from AZ they don't really refer to a bolted line as a trad line persay. they also do not call it a sport climb. they call it a bolted route and then usually throw in some other choice comments like ..make sure your ready for it..or It's an old style climb. Basically they are saying, without saying, that it is scary/ runout/ and dangerous but for them in their day it was pretty standard. And what's a word meaning "a type of climb that was pretty standard back in the day before sport climbing was invented"? -Jay
hence the gray area numb nuts!! that is the area between sport and trad...umm... yeah get it?
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azrockclimber
Apr 29, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And what's a word meaning "a type of climb that was pretty standard back in the day before sport climbing was invented"? The Socratic method at its best!
aww..are you trying to be viewed as smart?
that's very impressive. A bit said that you need to feel that way but that is your deal. You have studied literature and philosophy...good job. So have most of us. and some in great detail.
However, your firend failed to notice that I was referring to a gray area. Not one or the other.
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curt
Apr 29, 2005, 5:21 PM
Post #111 of 137
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I think it is rediculous that there is no gray area that is something other than sport or trad rock climbing. umm can't it be a bolted route. I think it is ridiculous that you can't get it through your head that since bolt were used before the invention of sport climbing that bolts can't be the sole factor that defines a sport climb. Did you move to Pennsylvania just to be among like-minded gumbies? In reply to: When I talk to some of the old hardasses from AZ they don't really refer to a bolted line as a trad line persay. they also do not call it a sport climb. they call it a bolted route and then usually throw in some other choice comments like ..make sure your ready for it..or It's an old style climb. Basically they are saying, without saying, that it is scary/ runout/ and dangerous but for them in their day it was pretty standard. And what's a word meaning "a type of climb that was pretty standard back in the day before sport climbing was invented"? -Jay hence the gray area numb nuts!! that is the area between sport and trad...umm... yeah get it?
Hey az....
Do you intentionally set out to be wrong all the time--or does it just work out that way for you?
Curt
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curt
Apr 29, 2005, 5:25 PM
Post #112 of 137
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: And what's a word meaning "a type of climb that was pretty standard back in the day before sport climbing was invented"? The Socratic method at its best! aww..are you trying to be viewed as smart?...
You're obviously not.
Curt
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maculated
Apr 29, 2005, 5:32 PM
Post #113 of 137
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Registered: Dec 23, 2001
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Hey AZ, sometimes it's more fun to have fun with a thread than to worry about what people think about you. If I had really wanted to look smart, I don't think I'd use a term that anyone who got through high school had to learn.
I'd be worried if I were you, though. Your profile says "TRAD" is where your heart is, but you love a good slab. So I think you mean . . . crack climbing is where your heart is? Because I've climbed quite a few slab routes in my day that required removable protection.
There, now I am trying to look smart. Do the glasses help? How about the Catholic school uniform?
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piton
Apr 29, 2005, 5:59 PM
Post #114 of 137
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traditional climbers open the car door, dress appropriate and pay for dinner, for a lady when they go on date.
sport climbers just let the lady open the car door, dress in jeans, and go dutch on the bill.
boulders just honk the horn in the driveway, wear pants & shirts w/ holes, and forget their wallet on a date.
aid climbers just do what it takes to get a date.
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jt512
Apr 29, 2005, 7:58 PM
Post #115 of 137
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In reply to: Hey AZ, sometimes it's more fun to have fun with a thread than to worry about what people think about you.
If azrockclimber is worried about what people think about him, he certainly has a funny way of showing it.
-Jay
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azrockclimber
Apr 29, 2005, 8:16 PM
Post #116 of 137
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey AZ, sometimes it's more fun to have fun with a thread than to worry about what people think about you. If azrockclimber is worried about what people think about him, he certainly has a funny way of showing it. -Jay
no shit.
anyway...it looks like I just view trad a little diffrently then some of the old school climbers. to me sport means relatively safe with bolts and achors, a bolted route which could entail anything from a sick runout slab to a mixed route with bolts every 40+',
Trad to me is basically where I am placing my own protection and firguring out how to keep my ass from hitting the deck. my own rig's/placements/ slung chicken heads etc. I just personally don't consider a bolted line a trad route. it may take sick skill to get through and balls of steel but to me trad is me and the rock....when I leave i take it with me and all that is left is the rock...
When I get to a bolt on a very hard(for me) runout route I go YES!!! sweet ass. (unless the bolt absolutely blows(haha) with trad I am runout/ scared and then I get to a spot that will take and I go ..oh shit...hold it together man you have to place something here that is going to work and its all up to you. generally these days I have run into pretty good bolts so..whatever. It just is not quite the same in my personal opinion.
And maculated I have taken and given quite a bit of shit on here but I think that you are one of the only cats on here that I think comes off as a major poser...I don't know why. You just seem to be one of those look at me read my stories "I'M A REAL CLIMBER" types. I could be very wrong. but...I'm just saying that is how you come off to me.
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jt512
Apr 29, 2005, 8:16 PM
Post #117 of 137
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I think it is rediculous that there is no gray area that is something other than sport or trad rock climbing. umm can't it be a bolted route. I think it is ridiculous that you can't get it through your head that since bolt were used before the invention of sport climbing that bolts can't be the sole factor that defines a sport climb. Did you move to Pennsylvania just to be among like-minded gumbies? In reply to: When I talk to some of the old hardasses from AZ they don't really refer to a bolted line as a trad line persay. they also do not call it a sport climb. they call it a bolted route and then usually throw in some other choice comments like ..make sure your ready for it..or It's an old style climb. Basically they are saying, without saying, that it is scary/ runout/ and dangerous but for them in their day it was pretty standard. And what's a word meaning "a type of climb that was pretty standard back in the day before sport climbing was invented"? -Jay hence the gray area numb nuts!! that is the area between sport and trad...umm... yeah get it?
OK, subtlety doesn't work with you. So here it is straight out: What type of route you have described is not in a gray area between sport and trad. It's trad; ie, traditional; ie, a type of climb authored before sport climbing was invented; ie, boldly led ground up and bolted on lead using a hand drill. That's about as traditional as a traditional route gets. Certainly bolder than some continuous crack of equivalent physical difficulty that the leader could sew up if he so wished.
Of course there are routes that don't seem to fall perfectly into either category, sport or trad, but the issue isn't bolts per se. As everyone who has been following this thread, except you, understands, having bolts as the exclusive protection is a necessary, but a not a sufficient, condition for a route being sport. Therefore, a route that is usually pinkpointed, using preplaced removable gear, cannot be a sport route; but the gear was preplaced, say, on rappel, so it isn't a trad route either. How about a route that was bolted on lead, but a couple of spots that take natural pro were left unbolted. Not all fixed pro, so not sport; bolted on rappel, so not trad. Such a routes have been described as "transition" routes, "mixed" routes, or sport routes with occasional gear placements; however, I propose that from now on such routes be called "healyje" routes.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 29, 2005, 8:23 PM
Post #118 of 137
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In reply to: anyway...it looks like I just view trad a little diffrently then some of the old school climbers. to me sport means relatively safe with bolts and achors, a bolted route which could entail anything from a sick runout slab to a mixed route with bolts every 40+'
You just blatantly contradicted yourself, n00b.
-Jay
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maculated
Apr 29, 2005, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: And maculated I have taken and given quite a bit of s--- on here but I think that you are one of the only cats on here that I think comes off as a major poser...I don't know why. You just seem to be one of those look at me read my stories "I'M A REAL CLIMBER" types. I could be very wrong. but...I'm just saying that is how you come off to me.
Oh Baby! Give it to me! If by illustrating my points with actual experience I am posing, then guilty as charged. Or maybe it is the trip reports I've written on actual climbing trips I have made that other readers of this site have requested of me. Yes. Definitely. Or maybe it is all the spraying I do about having balls of steel and sick skill . . . oh wait.
In reply to: it may take sick skill to get through and balls of steel but to me trad is me and the rock....when I leave i take it with me and all that is left is the rock...
That would be YOU. Very XTREME.
In reply to: Trad to me is basically where I am placing my own protection and firguring out how to keep my ass from hitting the deck. my own rig's/placements/ slung chicken heads etc.
Still waiting for your answer to my pointing out that I have climbed on slab routes requiring placements . . . but those aren't trad, are they? Or have you simply not climbed enough to know that they exist out there?
I, as a rule, don't flame or spread ill will, but you've brought this on yourself. The Socratic comment was humor.
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maculated
Apr 29, 2005, 8:48 PM
Post #121 of 137
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Boze, my thoughts exactly. :)
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reno
Apr 30, 2005, 12:37 AM
Post #123 of 137
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In reply to: aww..are you trying to be viewed as smart? that's very impressive. A bit said that you need to feel that way but that is your deal. You have studied literature and philosophy...good job. So have most of us. and some in great detail. However, your firend failed to notice that I was referring to a gray area. Not one or the other.
It would appear, at least to this under-educated soul, that some of "us" need spend more time on spelling (and typing and proofreading) than on literature and philosophy.
But that's just me.
I don't think Mac was trying to be viewed as smart. Might be wrong here (I know, "what's new?") but the people that Mac cares about already know she *is* smart, and I don't think she much cares about the opinions of the rest.
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edge
Apr 30, 2005, 12:41 AM
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Is this thread still going on?
I gave up somewhere around the third page in favor of more pleasurable pursuits, like banging my head against a brick wall, sticking my fingers in fans, and tightening the family jewels in a vice.
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reno
Apr 30, 2005, 12:44 AM
Post #125 of 137
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In reply to: traditional climbers open the car door, dress appropriate and pay for dinner, for a lady when they go on date. sport climbers just let the lady open the car door, dress in jeans, and go dutch on the bill. boulders just honk the horn in the driveway, wear pants & shirts w/ holes, and forget their wallet on a date. aid climbers just do what it takes to get a date.
Classic.
Can I add the following:
Trad: Bottle of booze at camp later, passed around for all to take a swig. Usually some vairation of whisky (Scotch, Irish, Canadian, or American,) but vodka will suffice.
Sport: Six pack of micro-brew and a case of cheap mass produced beer at camp... drink the good stuff till your taste buds are numb, then hit the cheap crap.
Boulder: No beer, but a quick run to Starbucks after a session for a triple vanilla soy macchiato with a dash of Madagascar cinnamon.
Aid: O-E 800, and BYOB. 'Nuff said.
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