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zenyetta
Apr 30, 2005, 3:59 PM
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Simply put:
When bringing up a second do you belay them straight from your belay device or do you run their rope through the anchor and then to your belay device.
further explanation: (optional)
Okay...let me see if i can word this right!! Humm. okay there you are setting up your anchor on a multi pitch climb in the the valley, nice day out, slight cool breeze blowing to cool your sweaty body off. Your are standing on a little tiny ledge, not a good stance AT ALL!!! Lets just say it not the perfect situation. You make your three point, tie it all together with a cordellet, slap a locker on the end and there you go! NOW the question is to bring my second up do you:
#1 anchor yourself into your anchor with a daisy chain or a clove hitch, then pull the rope up till your second says ...that's me. Put their end of the rope through your belay device, and bring them up.
#2 OR blah balh blah....your second says ...thats me. you put the rope THROUGH the locking biner connected to the 3 point anchor. THEN put the rope through your belay device.
This is a hot question between by friend and I.
I see both sides of the spectrum. Even in the latest climbing mag issue they said to JUST bring the rope through your belay device and you take in the load. BUT what they didn't' have was the situation of putting the rope through the locker and then through the belay device. The anchor will take the load, but putting the rope through the locker 1st will also prevent you from getting thrown off in a no perfect anchor situation.
Can you help solve this dilemma???
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reno
Apr 30, 2005, 4:15 PM
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Depends (tm) on the belay spot, how I set up the anchor, what's above me, what's below me, etc.
It ain't a "one or the other, all the time" issue. Lots of variables.
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urbanfood
Apr 30, 2005, 4:18 PM
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okay, don't change this again, i was midway thru my answer and you changed the post. i'm glad you did though, because not anchoring is NOT and option.
sometimes i belay them through the device, other times, on easy stuff, i'll just go off my harness, it depends on the situation. either one you use, you have to be anchored in, not half anchored in or sort of anchored in.
In reply to: The anchor will take the load, but putting the rope through the locker 1st will also prevent you from getting thrown off in a no perfect anchor situation.
the issue is whether you want your hips to take the load in a fall or the locker running through the the powerpoint. either way, you need to be anchored in and the anchor built for the correct direction of pull. whichever one you use, there should be NO CHANCE your second is going to pull you off. this cannot happen. if there's is any doubt, find a way to build a better anchor, or climb higher to a better belay ledge.
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altelis
Apr 30, 2005, 5:09 PM
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what about secret option number 3?
TWO Biners on the anchor-one used to tie mysefl off and the other used to belay my second directly off of the anchor.....
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reno
Apr 30, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: what about secret option number 3? TWO Biners on the anchor-one used to tie mysefl off and the other used to belay my second directly off of the anchor.....
What if both biners are attached to pieces of pro (gear, bolts, shrubs, whatever) that sucks and won't hold a load?
Suddenly, your secret option is worthless, yes?
(In case you want to know: Yes, I've seen, as have others on this forum, bolts that wouldn't hold a load.)
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iltripp
Apr 30, 2005, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: #1 anchor yourself into your anchor with a daisy chain or a clove hitch, then pull the rope up till your second says ...that's me. Put their end of the rope through your belay device, and bring them up.
First of all, do not anchor youself in with a daisy chain. A daisy chain should be used as your personal attachment only (i.e. clip yourself in to be secure when you first arrive at an anchor and use it before rapelling). It should not be an integral part of your anchor.
Let's say you are using a two bolt anchor: you can tie in with rope with a clove hitch and a locker on each bolt, or you can create an equalized anchor with a master point, and clip into at least a locker (although preferably a locker and another biner opposite and opposed).
Once you've done that, it really depends on the situation. If the anchor is bomber and it's easier to redirect the rope through a locker on the anchor, then go ahead and do that (you can also belay directly off of the anchor). I find doing this more comfortable on most belay stances.
In other situations, it may be better to belay directly from your belay device. This can be more uncomfortable, especially if your second is hang-dogging. Generally, if it works to redirect through the anchor, I do that. Other people may have other preferences.
However, I repeat, do not use your daisy chain as part of your anchor.
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jt512
May 1, 2005, 1:26 AM
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Good couterexample to why users should be allowed to post polls.
-Jay
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jimdavis
May 1, 2005, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: Simply put: When bringing up a second do you belay them straight from your belay device or do you run their rope through the anchor and then to your belay device. further explanation: (optional) Okay...let me see if i can word this right!! Humm. okay there you are setting up your anchor on a multi pitch climb in the the valley, nice day out, slight cool breeze blowing to cool your sweaty body off. Your are standing on a little tiny ledge, not a good stance AT ALL!!! Lets just say it not the perfect situation. You make your three point, tie it all together with a cordellet, slap a locker on the end and there you go! NOW the question is to bring my second up do you: #1 anchor yourself into your anchor with a daisy chain or a clove hitch, then pull the rope up till your second says ...that's me. Put their end of the rope through your belay device, and bring them up. #2 OR blah balh blah....your second says ...thats me. you put the rope THROUGH the locking biner connected to the 3 point anchor. THEN put the rope through your belay device. This is a hot question between by friend and I. I see both sides of the spectrum. Even in the latest climbing mag issue they said to JUST bring the rope through your belay device and you take in the load. BUT what they didn't' have was the situation of putting the rope through the locker and then through the belay device. The anchor will take the load, but putting the rope through the locker 1st will also prevent you from getting thrown off in a no perfect anchor situation. Can you help solve this dilemma???
Neither, buy an autoblocking device and bring em up off the anchor. Or use a munter off the anchor. I have yet to find a situation where this wasn't the best option.
I don't like getting pulled down the cliff, that's about as uncomfortable as it gets...I wouldn't belay directly off my harness unless I had a awesome stance and a shit-poor anchor.
I think the next best thing to hiring a guide to learn this is this: http://www.guidetricksforclimbers.com
Cheers,
Jim
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theflyingsquirrel
May 1, 2005, 3:13 AM
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anchor yourself to the anchors (haha that was good i used the word i was explaining in the explaination?) and then put the rope through your belay device... thats what the experienced guy said when i went climbing with him then again he smelled of whiskey and piss... i think he had a long week
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sava6e
May 1, 2005, 3:27 AM
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why belay off your harness? let the anchor take the load, i personally prefere my reveso just clip it directly to the anchor and belay off that you dont want your harness taking agbuse if you can avoid it.
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zenyetta
May 2, 2005, 5:25 AM
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Secret option number three is actually the way I do it. One of my partners thinks it wrong and will not climb with me if I belay her up that way!!! I think if there is ANY chance that you can fall this option is the way to go....so why not just do it anytime. Yes, with anchors there can be MAY variations and such but I just think this is the way to go. the most recent climbing "tech tip" thinks other wise so I thought I would get others opinions
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tradrenn
May 3, 2005, 2:36 AM
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In reply to: TWO Biners on the anchor-one used to tie mysefl off and the other used to belay my second directly off of the anchor.....
Couldn't agree more.
Plus this way in case of accident it is easier to escape belay and help him/her.
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tejz
May 3, 2005, 4:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: what about secret option number 3? TWO Biners on the anchor-one used to tie mysefl off and the other used to belay my second directly off of the anchor..... What if both biners are attached to pieces of pro (gear, bolts, shrubs, whatever) that sucks and won't hold a load? Suddenly, your secret option is worthless, yes? (In case you want to know: Yes, I've seen, as have others on this forum, bolts that wouldn't hold a load.)
I must be missing something if you pro sucks and wont hold a load then why are using it for an anchor? Wouldnt you want to find better placements before you subject it to a load? Anyways it really depends on the device you are using. If you have some sort of autolocking device attatch it to the masterpoint of the anchor having yourself clipped in as well. If not I like to belay through the anchor masterpoint then to my harness, I rather have the force pull me up then down, but that is mostly personal preference.
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keithlester
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May 3, 2005, 3:31 PM
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In reply to: I must be missing something if you pro sucks and wont hold a load then why are using it for an anchor? Wouldnt you want to find better placements before you subject it to a load? Anyways it really depends on the device you are using. If you have some sort of autolocking device attatch it to the masterpoint of the anchor having yourself clipped in as well. If not I like to belay through the anchor masterpoint then to my harness, I rather have the force pull me up then down, but that is mostly personal preference.
Go mountaineering and one day you'll be on a ledge with a shitty anchor, all the rope run out. Its customary to warn your second by use of the short phrase, "DONT FALL" Then you would be better to belay from your harness, so you dont shock load whatever anchor you have if your second should slip. You're not going to have to catch a big fall, unless there's a big unprotected traverse just below you, thats another matter entirely. Then its "FOR F... SAKE DONT FALL"
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cfnubbler
May 3, 2005, 3:48 PM
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In reply to: Good couterexample to why users should be allowed to post polls. -Jay
Agreed. What a clusterf*ck thread.
-Nubbler
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tejz
May 3, 2005, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I must be missing something if you pro sucks and wont hold a load then why are using it for an anchor? Wouldnt you want to find better placements before you subject it to a load? Anyways it really depends on the device you are using. If you have some sort of autolocking device attatch it to the masterpoint of the anchor having yourself clipped in as well. If not I like to belay through the anchor masterpoint then to my harness, I rather have the force pull me up then down, but that is mostly personal preference. Go mountaineering and one day you'll be on a ledge with a s--- anchor, all the rope run out. Its customary to warn your second by use of the short phrase, "DONT FALL" Then you would be better to belay from your harness, so you dont shock load whatever anchor you have if your second should slip. You're not going to have to catch a big fall, unless there's a big unprotected traverse just below you, thats another matter entirely. Then its "FOR F... SAKE DONT FALL"
Allright that makes more sense I was thinking if you know the placements wont hold a load why even waste your time placing them.
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hosh
May 3, 2005, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: why belay off your harness? let the anchor take the load, i personally prefere my reveso just clip it directly to the anchor and belay off that you dont want your harness taking agbuse if you can avoid it.
yeah, what that guy said.
hosh.
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climbingbetty22
May 3, 2005, 9:27 PM
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I think the most recent issue of Climbing discusses this issue in their Tech Tips.
I prefer to belay off the anchor itself. Makes it easier to escape the belay and unlike a redirect, it won't mulitple forces on your anchor.
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blueeyedclimber
May 17, 2005, 2:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: what about secret option number 3? TWO Biners on the anchor-one used to tie mysefl off and the other used to belay my second directly off of the anchor..... What if both biners are attached to pieces of pro (gear, bolts, shrubs, whatever) that sucks and won't hold a load? Suddenly, your secret option is worthless, yes? (In case you want to know: Yes, I've seen, as have others on this forum, bolts that wouldn't hold a load.)
That, IMO, would be the only reason to belay directly from your harness. If you have a crap anchor, then hopefully you have something to brace yourself against, old school style.
In most circumstances I would belay directly off the anchor. If the pitch traverses then I would go with the directional, and with an anchor that probably wouldn't hold a fall, i would brace myself and pray!
The key is, which was already stated, is that you have to know the situation and when to use each method.
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
May 17, 2005, 2:44 PM
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double post. Why can't I delete my own post?
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reno
May 17, 2005, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: The key is, which was already stated, is that you have to know the situation and when to use each method.
Agreed, 100%.
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jt512
May 17, 2005, 3:31 PM
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In reply to: double post. Why can't I delete my own post?
Because the site is fucked up and nobody is minding the store anymore. I refuse to take the time anymore to delete my double posts. If the people who run the forums don't care enough to fix the bugs, I'm not going to put in the extra effort.
-Jay
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azrockclimber
May 17, 2005, 4:09 PM
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a very very situational question. there is no correct answer.
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powder_dreams
May 17, 2005, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: The key is, which was already stated, is that you have to know the situation and when to use each method.
Exactly. Hard overhanging routes are no place for an autoblocking device to be employed, while just about any other situation would warrant its use. The way I see it, belaying off the anchor (bomber anchor that is) is safer for both the leader and the second (think rockfall). The ability to escape the belay quickly and safely is essential.
Ciao,
Matt
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blueeyedclimber
May 17, 2005, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: Exactly. Hard overhanging routes are no place for an autoblocking device to be employed, while just about any other situation would warrant its use. Ciao, Matt
Unless you're using a gri gri. Lowering or setting up a haul is easy as pie.
Josh
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