|
alpnclmbr1
May 4, 2005, 4:49 PM
Post #1 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Sort of a Rule #232
On old school type 5.9's and under. (this is a general principle and of course there are exceptions.)
Don't bring and/or place anything smaller then a #3 or #4 stopper. Don't place any cams smaller than a green alien.(if that) Nothing bigger than a #3 or #4 friend.
Part of my reasoning is that we didn't have that stuff back in the day when the route was first done. Big and small modern gear can totally change the character of some routes.
Now it is mostly a matter of style and maybe preparation insofar as using the additional gear as a tool for moving onto higher grades.
|
|
|
|
|
hosh
May 4, 2005, 4:57 PM
Post #2 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 1662
|
Hey, I've got another idea! let's climb everything with just pitons, because they only used to have pitons! just a style thing, I guess.
I see what you're saying and I kinda agree, but, um, so what?
Let's run things out a lot too (even when there's good placements), just to get the blood flowing and the nerves tingling...
hosh.
|
|
|
|
|
erockrings
May 4, 2005, 5:17 PM
Post #3 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 23
|
In reply to: Hey, I've got another idea! let's climb everything with just pitons, because they only used to have pitons! just a style thing, I guess.
Just what i was thinking.
many of the 5.9s in my area were first done by use of aid and I'm sure lots of knifeblades and other small pins were used an possibly fixed for some period of time.
That said, i don't often find myself placing the #3 stopper or black alien on any grade.
I do like your idea of keeping the lower grades a little more interesting and bold though!
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
May 4, 2005, 5:24 PM
Post #4 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
alpnclmbr,
I see what you are getting at. In fact for years, the biggest piece I had was a #4 Friend. If it was wider than that, then it was runout. But why not do this to 5.10's too :lol:
In fact, Some of us started climbing BC (before cams). Whenver I put my rack together for an easier climb I look at the hexes and think that I should be able to climb it with those and stoppers, but I still usually take the hexes off the rack and use cams...
This year I wimped out and bought some big cams and I am looking forward to placing them, not carrying the suckers but placing them will be a treat.
This year I was on an easy route and the move to the first bolt seemed to be the crux. I had a new alien and was excited to place that sucker.
However, in the mountains, or on long routes, it is a skill to be able to use less and go light...
Rockclimbing is not the only sport where this modern gear makes things "easier". If you learned to telemark in leather boots you know what I am talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
sbclimber
May 4, 2005, 5:25 PM
Post #5 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 444
|
Hey let's not take medicine if we get sick because they didn't have medicine in the old days... Geez, life was tough back then.
Like said above, I kinda get your idea, but it is a stupid one. Are you going to tell a 5.8 leader to pass up a perfect blue alien or whatever because you couldn't have placed one when you climbed it? That sucks you didn't have them back in the day, but we do now, and we might as well stay safe.
*****Don't get me wrong, old school style is way more bold and committing, but you would have placed small pieces if you had them. Simple as that.
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
May 4, 2005, 5:35 PM
Post #6 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
I/ve been known to go retro and leave the cams on the deck for something like Sail Away. But don't expect me to jump on even a 5.4 like Angels Fright with five pitons and eight carabiners like the first time.
Were we really that bold or just crazy ?:?
|
|
|
|
|
sbclimber
May 4, 2005, 5:42 PM
Post #7 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 444
|
In reply to: Were we really that bold or just crazy ?:?
you guys must have been lots of both :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
May 4, 2005, 5:54 PM
Post #8 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I'm not going to recommend it to anybody, but my partners and I sometimes go camless on easy lines for the exact reasons in the OP. It's not a habit, but it's fun when we do it. If you onsight far harder than the grade, why not make it a little more interesting? :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
reprieve
May 4, 2005, 6:01 PM
Post #9 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 604
|
Rule #233
Tell everybody else how they should be climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
May 4, 2005, 6:01 PM
Post #10 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
Exactly, J_ung!
5.9 trad lines put up back in the day.... sure, I've led them with cams, but with every subsequent attempt to climb the same line, the game becomes: can I do it with ONLY passive pro... then it becomes: How few pieces can I place and still be safe?
Climbing with just a double set of nuts has made me a better climber, fer sure. You'll scope the line with more thought on placements, moving from one good one to the next w/ no BS thoughts of slapping a cam in because I feel a little shakey for a moment.
AND it feels liberating to not have so much crap dangling from my harness.
Sty
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
May 4, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #11 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
Another worthwhile exercize is to see how many tied off features you can use for pro sans any gear but slings. It's almost never the whole climb. Don't leave the rack on the deck! In the areas where it works, not all areas are amenable to this technique, you can often get a lot more protection than you'd expect using only slings and natural features. It's a valuable skill to develop.
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
May 4, 2005, 6:06 PM
Post #12 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: Sort of a Rule #232 On old school type 5.9's and under.
The Leader Must Not Fall.
|
|
|
|
|
veganboyjosh
May 4, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #13 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2003
Posts: 1421
|
In reply to: In reply to: Sort of a Rule #232 On old school type 5.9's and under. Fine and dandy, just remember Rule #1: The Leader Must Not Fall.
i thought #1 was:
belayer doesn't take their hand off the brake end.
|
|
|
|
|
scuclimber
May 4, 2005, 6:20 PM
Post #14 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 1007
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sort of a Rule #232 On old school type 5.9's and under. Fine and dandy, just remember Rule #1: The Leader Must Not Fall. i thought #1 was: belayer doesn't take their hand off the brake end.
That's rule #2 man. You need to read up on your rules. Pick up: The Complete Book of Rock Climbing Rules by John Wong, pub. by The Mountaineers or Rock Climbing Rules You Must Not Forget If You Want to Live by I.P. Rocky, pub. by Falcon. :wink:
Colin
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
May 4, 2005, 6:58 PM
Post #15 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Better living thorugh chemistry.
|
|
|
|
|
mother_sheep
May 4, 2005, 7:02 PM
Post #16 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: Rule #233 Tell everybody else how they should be climbing.
Someone missed the point.
So what would ya say the old skool ice rules are?
|
|
|
|
|
dynoguy
May 4, 2005, 7:11 PM
Post #17 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 6, 2003
Posts: 730
|
HEY
Lets all climb in crappy old hiking boots too :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
climb_in
May 4, 2005, 7:19 PM
Post #18 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2005
Posts: 78
|
never done trad, hoping to get some friends to teach me eventually but. . .
you choose your own level of involvement (fight club, i think)
if it'll make you feel better to place minimal pro, go for it. it's kind'a like an eliminate, if you can do it with less pro it'll only make you that much stronger for next time.
if you survive
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
May 4, 2005, 7:26 PM
Post #19 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: On old school type 5.9's and under. (this is a general principle and of course there are exceptions.) Don't bring and/or place anything smaller then a #3 or #4 stopper. Don't place any cams smaller than a green alien.(if that) Nothing bigger than a #3 or #4 friend.
Yeah, fshizzle and I did that on the Steck Salathe. Not sure I'd recommend it though.
Gotta love grovelling up run-out OW/sqeeze/chimneys, cursing the "pro to 3 inches" gear beta under your breath.
|
|
|
|
|
timmy_t
May 4, 2005, 7:36 PM
Post #20 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 128
|
For all of the aspiring alpinists or fast/light climbers of any kind, take this 'rule' to heart. I know I'm always ranting about this, but when you have a very minimal rack you'll be stoked that you were working your mental game all that time. Start wearing a swami-belt too!! It's super comfortable, you can piss really easily, and I've taken falls in them and seen others take falls in them and it really isn't as uncomfortable as you might think.
Put the emphasis on yourself and your skills, not your gear!!!
|
|
|
|
|
markc
May 4, 2005, 7:37 PM
Post #21 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
In reply to: In reply to: Rule #233 Tell everybody else how they should be climbing. Someone missed the point.
Really? I thought (s)he was spot on.
If this was offered as something nifty that alpnclmbr likes to do for himself, I'd be all for it. However, I can live without the attitude that often comes with his "rules" for climbing. Obviously, YMMV.
My #1 rule for climbing: As long as you're not doing something that will have a permanent impact on the manner in which other people climb (retrobolting, chipping, etc.) and you report what you do honestly, climb however the hell you want. I'd kindly ask you to give me the same courtesy.
|
|
|
|
|
urbanfood
May 4, 2005, 9:08 PM
Post #22 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 7, 2005
Posts: 127
|
In reply to: Sort of a Rule #232 On old school type 5.9's and under. (this is a general principle and of course there are exceptions.) Don't bring and/or place anything smaller then a #3 or #4 stopper. Don't place any cams smaller than a green alien.(if that) Nothing bigger than a #3 or #4 friend. Part of my reasoning is that we didn't have that stuff back in the day when the route was first done. Big and small modern gear can totally change the character of some routes.
i agree!!!!!!!! in fact i'm going to sell all of my aliens, my big cams, anything small i have. i'll sell my rock shoes, my new 9 loop wildcountry harness, my prana chalkbag, my digital camera, hell in fact i'll sell my car. i'll just walk to joshua tree, how long will that take from LA? in fact, anything that will make my climbing safer, i'm ebaying it! i don't need that crap.
seriously, when you start telling someone else how they should climb a route, what gear they should take or not take, or brag about how hard it was back in the day (remember our grandparents used to walk 5 miles to school.....uphill both ways) it's time to check your own ego. you shouldn't be worrying about how someone else climbs.
people climb for different reasons, use different kinds of gear for different reasons, are motivated for different reasons, let 'em be and enjoy it for themselves.
remember, people climb for reasons other than your own. :D
|
|
|
|
|
mother_sheep
May 4, 2005, 9:23 PM
Post #23 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Rule #233 Tell everybody else how they should be climbing. Someone missed the point. Really? I thought (s)he was spot on. If this was offered as something nifty that alpnclmbr likes to do for himself, I'd be all for it. However, I can live without the attitude that often comes with his "rules" for climbing. Obviously, YMMV. My #1 rule for climbing: As long as you're not doing something that will have a permanent impact on the manner in which other people climb (retrobolting, chipping, etc.) and you report what you do honestly, climb however the hell you want. I'd kindly ask you to give me the same courtesy.
Hmmm. . .lighten up. It's the freakin internet. Climb how ever you want. Perhaps the original poster's comments were directed to those that are involved in, interested in and can appreciate topics regarding climbing style. I don't think he was specifically telling YOU how to climb.
Good topic in my opinion!!!!
Rule # 235
Don't take this shit too seriously.
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
May 4, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #24 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
Somewhere the original intent of the first post and some of the subsiquent ones got lost.
I'll lay it out in terms even those equiped with a large shoulder chip can understand.
You can learn a lot from practicing minimalist techniques in a controlled situation.
If you wait to learn these techniques when it's an absolute requirement you may find the results, let's say, "uncomfortable".
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
May 4, 2005, 10:30 PM
Post #25 of 44
(6155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
Tried taking hexes on Charlotte Dome South Face because they were lighter and we were doing it in a day. Bad idea. BAD idea, and had nothing to do with our ability to place hexes and everything to do with the flared nature of the cracks.
Take a pitch well within your abilities, that you are very familiar with, and lead it using every odd piece of stuff you are unfamiliar with.
That's how I started using tricams. Also used a carabiner as a nut on that same lead. As well as a knotted runner.
Kamps and Sacherer freeing Salathe' Route on Half Dome. If someone tried leading the "5.9" pitches on that with the suggested "trad" 5.9 rack, most pitches, and several of the belays, would be unprotected.
Gear helps compensate for my lack of ability.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
