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kwmayo
May 9, 2005, 6:32 PM
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I'm discovering making slings is less expensive than pre-sized/sown ones.
My days as a Boy Scout tell me that when I tie webbing to make a sling, a sheet bend should the job. Before I put this into practice, I want to know if it's wise. If not, what not do you suggest? I'm mainly interested in top rope anchoring.
Thanks
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codhands
May 9, 2005, 6:42 PM
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Sheet bends are cool, double sheet bends are cooler, double sheetbend with the second tuck reversed even cooler. But for climbing I would use a water knot or beer knot. I like the beer knot because it's stronger (according to what i've read), plus it has the word beer in it. How could you go wrong!
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thedukezip
May 9, 2005, 6:43 PM
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if you are tying two ends of webbing together, most people would recommend the water knot. I'm sure a google search would give you pictures better than words can describe
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codhands
May 9, 2005, 6:46 PM
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http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/pull_tests_7-00.html
Check out this link test # 11
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kwmayo
May 9, 2005, 6:50 PM
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Thanks All
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codhands
May 9, 2005, 6:52 PM
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One more praise of beer --
Beer Knot- Published more than 10 years ago in climbing publications, the Beer Knot is used to join 2 pieces or ends of tubular webbing together to make a sling or runner. While the customary Ring Bend (Water Knot) tests at 50-65% of strength (depending on which reference you read), the Beer Knot is consistently at 80% as tested by PMI. The Beer Knot is left tied, not removed as others are. It is useful for anchors or other uses when you don't need to re-tie to adjust for length. Easily tied on new webbing, it is a bit of a challenge with used webbing.
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yekcir
May 9, 2005, 7:10 PM
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I use 2 single fisherman's knots tied tight and seated against each other. Used to use water knots, until a friend of mine watched his come undone on lead...
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skymeat
May 9, 2005, 7:34 PM
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I've never heard of a beer knot. So I found a picture, and after a little frustration I figured it out. I like the look and feel of it. Although I think it would be hard to tell if it was slipping, perhaps mark the spot where the webbing goes in the webbing?
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greenketch
May 9, 2005, 8:35 PM
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As to the Beer knot, do a search on this site for them. Several good web pages and strings relating to their tying and use. As to the inspection of them it is easy to see one end and feel the other although they move together. If your webbing is so stiff that you cannot feel the tail you should not be using that sling anyway. :)
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catbird_seat
May 9, 2005, 9:30 PM
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If I am not mistaken, the main reason that the water knot is the most preferred for webbing is the ease with which it can be untied after being weighted. There is a trick to untying it. You roll it against a hard surface with the palm of your hand.
Why would you want to untie it? It's the very reason why most carry tied runners instead of sewn ones and that is to tied them around trees and such for rappelling.
Waters knots are secure provided that:
1) you make sure the tails are at least 3" long after the knot is set up tight by pulling hard on it.
2) that you inspect your runners periodically to make sure the tails haven't creeped short or that the knot has become loosened.
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knudenoggin
May 9, 2005, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: I'm discovering making slings is less expensive than pre-sized/sown ones.
In reply to: My days as a Boy Scout tell me that when I tie webbing to make a sling, a sheet bend should the job.
(I might believe that the Square/Reef knot was recommended,
for tying slings in cloth for supporting an injured limb. I've seen
climbers use, and some climbing source recommend, this for
webbing.)
In reply to: ...make sure the tails haven't creeped short...
ends--i.p., the exterior one (lying on outside of other tape)--would
sometimes (some materials & some forces--low ones) "ratchet"
out under cyclical loading. An easy check against this would be
to tuck this exterior end additionally. It seemed that stiffness of
the material enabled this sort of slipping!?
In reply to: I use 2 single fisherman's knots tied tight and seated against each other. Used to use water knots, until a friend of mine watched his come undone on lead...
Many folks report great difficulty at untying the knot after it has been
loaded (the above advice to try to compress/distort the knot by
rolling it is a good tip).
In reply to: Ring Bend (Water Knot) tests at 50-65% of strength (depending on which reference you read), the Beer Knot is consistently at 80% as tested by PMI.
9/16" vs. 1" tubular tape). It would be nice to have some details of the
PMI testing (and the other), in order to get to understand why there
could be such a difference in strengths between such seemingly like
knot structures. E.g., perhaps the Water knot tends to break at some
particular point/side (as noted above re its slippage--just the one end),
and the Beer could be seen to alter that weakness!?
As for worry about the buried end slipping unseen, I suppose that one
could load the knot and then stitch a stout thread through that side,
and put Dbl.Overhand knots on either side (not so flush): if the end
is drawn into the knot, it should suck those stoppers up flush against
the outer tape.
*knudeNoggin*
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urbanfood
May 10, 2005, 6:54 PM
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double post
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urbanfood
May 10, 2005, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: While the customary Ring Bend (Water Knot) tests at 50-65% of strength (depending on which reference you read), the Beer Knot is consistently at 80% as tested by PMI.
and this matters why? use the water knot. the OP is mainly interested in top roping, there is absolutely no need to use anything other then the water knot for your slings when top roping. leave a 3 inch tail and periodically check them. i've never had a problem.
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codhands
May 10, 2005, 7:32 PM
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I guess I'm just kinda of a knot snob. The water knot is more than adequate, i agree, that's why so many people use them. But as I stated, "I" prefer the beer knot. If there is only toproping involved then Getting the knot undone is probably a moot point. And having worked in the commercial fishing industry for over ten years, and tying thousands upon thousands of knots, of all different kinds, splicing line, wire rope etc... Watching 1.5 inch wire rope under load fray go boing and go sailing down the deck while people dive out of the way, and watching 3" twelve strand braided hawser part and break out wheel house windows, having to tie two lines together as the gear is going out and plucks the completed knot out of my hand, hearing stories about some guy watching his water knot come undone on his protection, "I can't see how that happened, but strange things do happen," I feel that if you can tie a stronger knot why not do it. I realize that it's easier to size a water knot for the purposes of equalizing an anchor system, but that is about the only benefit I see and not applicable for all situations. Also, from personal experience I can say that if you work at it almost any knot can be untied, almost. Its apples and oranges, tomatoes, tohmahtos. Knots are fun to tie and learn. There are many applications for each. Thanks for your critique.
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codhands
May 10, 2005, 8:23 PM
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Also if you don't need those tails out there flappin' in the breeze like some french dudes moustach why have them. My theory is if you can have a cleaner knot, why knot?
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ben87
May 10, 2005, 8:35 PM
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Isn't the cleanest, strongest knot you can use on webbing....a pre-sewn? This goes against the OP's original point of saving money.... but
I'll be using pre-sewns for most of my slings for the same reason some people here have recommended the beer knot - maximum strength and clean. This is for all the times I don't want/need to untie or readjust a sling. And then, I'll always carry a few slings tied - with a water knot - for the times when adjustability or ease of untieing are my main goals.
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jackpinesavage
May 11, 2005, 12:46 PM
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If you're going to rely on the Boy Scout preferences for tying slings, the standards followed by BSA say the water knot is all that is used for tubular webbing.
I like the beer knot too . smoother neater looking slings. I use it on my personal stuff, water knot at the climbing tower.
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kwmayo
May 11, 2005, 1:11 PM
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Easier done than said, water knot it is.
Thanks again
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codhands
May 11, 2005, 2:12 PM
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Good choice! 500,000* climbers can't be wrong. :D
*random number
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