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bluenose
May 12, 2005, 4:03 PM
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No, this isn't a post that needs to be dragged down to comm.
I've been doing a fair amount of reading, surfing and pondering over climbing and safety issues as it relates to gear and rope handling for TR routes. Generally anyone posts a question about a configuration and they are promptly told to have someone experienced show them how it is done. While I agree, generally, I can't help but think how much common sense plays out in this. I look at some anchor setups, for example, and can easily see the potential downfalls of some depicted setups compared to solid ones. In the back of my mind I think " what kind of idiot would ever have even thought that would be safe?". The SRENE acronym makes perfect sense. The knots are all straightforward. Assuming that the anchor points are great ...
How hard can it be?
Anyone else do it themselves from scratch...and survive?
Bash away.
Jeff.
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skinnyclimber
May 12, 2005, 4:51 PM
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I assume you are talking about gear anchors? Because bolt anchors are pretty easy to TR
well I havn't actually set up topropes yet, but I have set up "anchors" that were well equalized and multidirectional near the ground and then weighted them and hung out on them for a while... I have done enough testing of the system that I feel I could safely rig a TR. All this was learned from "Freedom of the Hills". But since most top roping is done with a partner as your belayer, I will most likely end up getting some instruction from my friends before I set out on my own... I will let you know if I live
Skinny
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fiend
May 12, 2005, 4:55 PM
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My friend and I taught ourselves to sport climb. Not that it's overly difficult, but after a good year of our gym owner not getting around to being able to teach our lead course (that's a whole 'nother story) we finally just went out and did it.
Most climbing is just common sense but you have to ask yourself how much common sense some of the rc.com users have. I can't believe some of the things people think to ask online.
When it comes down to it, there are those that have the ability to figure things out through books and watching others, and then there are those who come to rc.com to ask which bouldering mat they should buy.
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scottquig
May 12, 2005, 5:17 PM
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It's just that some people are really stupid. If you were to tell them to learn on their own, they might go cliff diving or something.
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dklco
May 12, 2005, 5:21 PM
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yeah i just read up alot on it and asked a few questions... the first time i went out i was really nervouse about how to do it and everything but i found out its really, like you said, common sence...there are a few things you want to know for sure like knots and stuff but other than that it really is just common sence, redundancy, no sharp edges, equalazation and such...but the real problem is alot of people you decide to learn themselves dont really spend that much time thinking about or reasearching safe tecnique so they just jump off on a sling and a carabiner....its common sence but you do have to think about it alittle.
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greenketch
May 12, 2005, 5:22 PM
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Bluenose I can't say that I agree fully. I am a fairly "self taught" climber. I took several classes way back when. I also learn quite a bit from climbing with other more experienced climbers. I do agree that in the sport world that clipping draws to establish anchors is fairly safe. In the trad world it really is only experience that helps you learn what is a safe placement is. Remember the old saying about learning to make good decisions only comes from makeing bad decisions.
So I will way in that learning on your own can work and some of use survive. On the other hand the longer I climb the more rescues I am part of, that involve someone that thought " it can't be that hard."
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jammer
May 12, 2005, 5:26 PM
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I tought myself how to set up TR anchors, which was no more then buying a 60m static line and cutting it in half to make my anchores. The knots are straight forward and for the edges, I cut up an old, but flexable, garden hose that I slide over the static line and place it where the rope goes over the ledges edge. After my first year of climbing (TRing), I taught myself how to sport climb properly.
That said, I did, however, read everything I could about what I was attampting to do and tested it all on the ground before I tried it on a route.
Trad is another story. I did not attempt to try trad until I was instructed by an experience trad leader. This took me a couple of years to find a tradster that would take the time to show me. It was hard to wait that long cause I had already purchased all the passive gear I could afford.
No matter what you decide to do, teach yourself or learn from an experienced climber, it all boils down to how much you remember, how you apply what you have been taught and what risks you are willing to take with your life and the life of others you are climbing with.
Teaching yourself has been done for years and will not go away due to the constant hounding by us on this site or any other site you frequent. Step back and review your decissions you have made. Look at them carefully and act on "The Final Decission."
Be Safe and Climb On!
hj
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speedywon
May 12, 2005, 6:09 PM
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Whether it be their higher IQ or just mechanical application experience, some people can just visualize this stuff. Other people can't and need to be taught face to face in order to be safe. The people that you hear about on the 10 o'clock news are those that are so stupid that they think they're smart. They buy an entire rack of gear at REI and set out for the crag. Ten minutes later they've got their tope rope anchored to a 1/2 dead tree root at the top of a 5.14, using 1 accessory biner, rope tied in to one of the gear loops on their harness, which isn't doubled back.
The problem is that these morons often sound like a "normal" person when online. So, to avoid being involved in assisted suicide, we typically tell them to "go get shown by someone".
So, since we don't know you, you have to make the judgment call. If you're really smart enough to figure this stuff out and are willing to bet you and your partner's life on your understanding, go for it. If you're only pretending to know what you're doing, you're gonna' die.
I intend no offense by this post; I just don't like reading stories about climbers getting killed.
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korntera
May 12, 2005, 6:33 PM
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It does seem like common sense but I have seen peoples anchors that were a death trap and hear about anchors that were a death trap. My friend told me he saw somebody with a peice of webbing(just 1) attached to 1 bolt with 2 non locking biners, then they had two non locking biners at the bottom and THEN they tied cordellete in some weird way to those two biners and attached one locker to the bottom of the cordelette. My friend told them this was a terrible anchor and the guy said, no its not, just let me teach my friends how to climb. That guy, needs to be taken out of the gene pool.
-Travis
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bluenose
May 12, 2005, 7:05 PM
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Some good feedback there, thanks.
I especially liked
"If you're only pretending to know what you're doing, you're gonna' die. "
I don't pretend. I also don't pretend that everything is always going to work perfectly, after all, pros fall too.
I do enjoy a technical challenge, I know ropes well enough to be comfy with knots, I am very safety conscious and I certainly don't mind asking if I think I may be amiss with something. It just happens that, short of hanging around the gym, which is 1 hour away, I haven't run across any climbers locally. The climbers that I have seen at the gym haven't been very talkative either. Neither is the owner, it was like pulling hens teeth trying to find out is there was any organized group that climb regularly that he knew of.
When I started diving I found friends that dove and had their own boat, met others that dove and had their own boat and had a very good introduction through good diving partners. I only ever had to do the initial certification, which compares to the belay intro you get at a gym ie: not much there, with respect to the sport. If only I could have been so lucky with climbing...already.
Jeff.
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landgolier
May 12, 2005, 7:13 PM
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The mechanics of a toprope anchor aren't that hard, especially in areas where SOP is just to sling two big trees, equalize, and you're done. What is hard and requires more than just a book is learning how to equalize quickly and effectively, where to hang the biners for a given route to keep the falls safe, and how to do things safely at the top of the cliff so you don't fall/get pulled off. We've all got one story of some utter moron who had one piece of webbing between two spindly trees with only a bit of slack and one biner clipped over that like some kind of demented zipline of doom, but I bet we've each had at least 10 incidents when we took 10 minutes to equalize 2 simple webbing loops, ended up with the biners 2 feet left of where we realized they should be when we got to the bottom, or had a sketchy moment when the novice at the bottom pulled on the rope to straighten it out while we were holding it at the cliff edge.
Glad you've got FOTH, though, everybody always points people toward Climbing Anchors, which is a great book for learning the mechanics trad anchors on multipitch but has very little of use to the tree-wrapping toproper.
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saltamonte
May 12, 2005, 7:44 PM
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I am 95% self taught
I got the gear bought a book and went to it. didnt have any climbing friends so I would take my non climbing friends fortunately amoung my first aquired items was a gri gri so that helped with the whole safety in the hands of noobies. when I began lead climbing an experienced climber did give me one "lesson" in backclipping and taking lead falls other than that I learned everything as I went
looking back the only real mistake I know I made was top roping straight from biners hooked into the anchor bolts this created an american triangle putting uneeded stress on the bolts but of course nothing they couldn't handle I did this on my first and only time out before acquiring the "How to Rockclimb" book which upon reading I saw my error and began using quickdraws or runners.
overall if I had just gotten the book before my first outing I believe I would have likely made no major mistakes. The problem with sugesting to someone that they self teach themselves something as potentially complicated and definately crucial as anchor placement or even rockclimbing itself is that you never know how much patience and attention to detail that person has. and though for some self instruction is very effective and even safe. you don't want to be the voice that sends some impatient undetail oriented adventurer to his or her doom just because you knew that YOU or someone else like you could have done it right without professional coaching
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dynoguy
May 12, 2005, 7:47 PM
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im pretty much self taught on most of my climbing skills. just read alot and praciticed alot. though i wouldn't recommend it. having a mentor would have been way safer.
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sarcat
May 12, 2005, 8:01 PM
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bluenose:
I think what most are agreeing with you. The problem is that with so many differnt levels of comprehension and with who-knows what types of people writing and reading, it feels responsible to tell anyone "don't guess" but to do it right. Tons of info spewed here and few willing to take actual responsibility for it.
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bluenose
May 12, 2005, 8:19 PM
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The responsibility factor. I can hardly expect anyone here to take any responsibility if they say "Yah, do it yourself", then I get hurt. It's still my own damn fault, unless they showed up and pushed me :shock: , of course. It's all mine.
Because of that I find it disturbing when someone asks for advise and they jump on the first post that agrees with them, or directs them to follow a particular action, and it's wrong. Then they come back all indignant as if it is someone else's fault for their stupidity.
This kind of forum is good to test the waters. I have noticed that if the question is put into a reasonable context and phrased in comprehensible english that the signal to noise ratio is usually pretty high.
Oh, new sig, thanks to Speedywon, if it works.
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blondgecko
Moderator
May 13, 2005, 6:24 AM
Post #16 of 19
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In reply to: No, this isn't a post that needs to be dragged down to comm. I've been doing a fair amount of reading, surfing and pondering over climbing and safety issues as it relates to gear and rope handling for TR routes. Generally anyone posts a question about a configuration and they are promptly told to have someone experienced show them how it is done. While I agree, generally, I can't help but think how much common sense plays out in this. I look at some anchor setups, for example, and can easily see the potential downfalls of some depicted setups compared to solid ones. In the back of my mind I think " what kind of idiot would ever have even thought that would be safe?". The SRENE acronym makes perfect sense. The knots are all straightforward. Assuming that the anchor points are great ... How hard can it be? Anyone else do it themselves from scratch...and survive? Bash away. Jeff.
The problem with common sense is that it isn't very common...
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tradrenn
May 14, 2005, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: When it comes down to it, there are those that have the ability to figure things out through books and watching others, and then there are those who come to rc.com to ask which bouldering mat they should buy.
That is so true.
Myself I went with common sens, bought 12 books and of I go.
( That was 2 years ago )
Not everybody in this word has common sense and/or inteligence in their brains. ( Spelling ok ? )
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fear
May 14, 2005, 11:50 PM
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A friend and myself figured it out many years ago with no help. The worst thing that happened was 6-point TR anchors involving 300+ feet of sling/static line material.
It ain't rocket science.
But you gotta keep in mind that 95% of the population is dumb. I mean... really, really dumb..... Remember that over 2 million Chia-Heads were actually purchased by consumers last year...
On trad lead we also more or less taught ourselves at the Gunks and local crags on very easy stuff that we just weren't going to fall on. We then would critique each other's placements. I fondly remember a very early lead on Frog's Head(5.5) in the Gunks with my friend leading. As he'd tug the rope to clip the next piece he'd usually dislodge some crap placement below that would come zinging down the rope(mostly nuts and tricams).
Ahhh.... Good times.....
-Fear
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sarcat
May 16, 2005, 3:31 PM
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Ch-ch-ch-Chia.
I must be dumb.
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