Maybe the best way to raise your onsight level is to practice onsighting?

I didn't suggest it was a trad route. I said he tradded a sport route, a difference imo.

The reverse... some ude uses preplaced gear and works a hard crack and eventually redpoints it after numerous days practice... that dude sport climbed a trad route.

A recent discussion dissected the oft-beaten dead horse of define 'trad.' The traditional arguments (get it... traditional??? HAh! Sometimes I just KILL MYSELF!!!) ensued.

One of the points often centers around bolted faces, are these trad or not? Others focus on the methods of the first ascent, whether traditional methods were employed or not.

Lots of fine hairs to be split of course. No useful conclusions and no wisdom was gained by anyone. No matter, its rc.com and the internet afterall. The fun is in the argument, in refining the points of view.

Last Saturday Angus and I went sport climbing. It was fun. On the cliff were two new routes, about which neither of us knew anything whatsoever.

A line of bolts leading upward, some distant anchor chains. We couldn't see all the bolts on either of these routes. They were steep and totally unknown, including the grade. They didn't even have chalk on them to point out the holds.

Angus led one of them, ground up, no falls, no hangs. I say he tradded a sport route, in that he climbed employing the traditional methods. Sure, he clipped rapped placed bolts enroute, but he didn't place them and he had no foreknowledge of their location or number, save what he could see from the ground.

How is this fundamentally different from leading an established crack climb about which the climber knows nother other than what she can observe from the ground, or a bolted trad face? We are told that tradding is not simply to be equated to 'placing gear.' There is more to it than that. We are also told that a bolted face can be a trad climb.

HOW the bolts were placed is often a determination for if a bolted face is a sport climb or not, but even that isn't a reliable rule. A bolted face sport climb can be created from the ground up, for example.

Anyway, on sighting routes about which the leader essentially knows nothing save that which she can see with her own eyes IS one of the traditional means of climbing. And it is a proud thing to do too.

I'll tell you what... launching up some sport route with absolutely no knowledge of its grade, number of bolts, quality of bolts, etc... can be very intimidating.

Just some random tradtitional thoughts.

Cheers
DMT

Is there anyone out there who would call Bachar-Yerian or Doub-Griffith a sport climb?l

Heaven forbid we should dare think outside the box or have a bit of fun with climbing nomenclature.

DMT

Hmmm....maybe I missed the point here. I thought that the argument WAS the fun. :D

I DON'T care what type of route its called. Of course Angus onsighted it.

On sighting is in the best tradition of free climbing. Hence he tradded a sport route. Too bad if you don't like me saying that.

Heaven forbid we should dare think outside the box or have a bit of fun with climbing nomenclature.

There is a certain old tradster on this site with whom I enjoy debating. Now he is certainly under the impression that I just argue for argument's sake. He is entitled to his opinion. I'm pretty sure he's earned all his opinions. I know I'm entitled to mine.

It may seem disengenuous, but I've learned from the man every time we've debated. My opinions on these things constantly evolves and he (and plenty of others) help shape my views on climbing.

Some people learn from the lecture. Others have to make it up from scratch. An alarming number of people require some sort of rigid creed to which they constantly refer.

I learn by poking at the edges. I've always been this way (much to the consternation of my teachers in school). The truth of the middle is easy to discern. The truth of the margins is much more difficult.

Yes, I enjoy debating. But it isn't mean spirited (usually) and it isn't just arguing for the sake of the argument.

And lastly, I think it is a two way street. Many of us have surely thought or felt from time to time, "no one's opinion's are changed by any of this..." about some climbing, religious or political argument.

But I don't think that is always true. I think our minds do expand, even when we are confronted with the opinions we reject. If it gets us to reexamine our thoughts on the subject...

Cheers!
DMT

I see no virtue in trying to blur the "trad" concept further; it has some useful importance, yet already confuses most of the gym generation.

PUNK IS: the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.

PUNK IS: a movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated through willful ignorance of human nature.

PUNK IS: a process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and through repetition, flowers into social evolution.

PUNK IS: a belief that this world is what we make of it, truth comes from our understanding of the way things are, not from the blind adherence to prescriptions about the way things should be.

PUNK IS: the constant struggle against fear of social repercussions.