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newtocalgary
Jul 5, 2002, 9:46 PM
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I have been climbing for 2 1/2 decades and have been on this site since spring. I see all these kids asking questions and getting 10 different opinions on knots safety leading etc. Some of this advise is coming from other beginers and gym rats that just say what they think is the answer or what they might of read somewhere. To those people getting some of this advice dont take it as fact and look at the sourse of whos giving it (how long they have climbed safely and how many years of experiance they have)
I have worked teaching climbing for years Climbed hundreds of alpine climbs including Denali,Mont Blanc, and dozens in pakistan and west coast. I have climbed trad since the 70's(with only one major hospitaliztion LOL) and started clipping bolts for a few years now and I wouldnt even listen to my own advise sometimes Forget listening to a gym rat There is my rant for the day thanks
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doosh
Jul 5, 2002, 9:53 PM
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I agree with this rant wholeheartedly.
The reason why I feel like someone should come onto an internet forum and call "bu!!sh*t" quite often is because, quite often, incorrect or misleading statements are made in response to questions asked.
Even a correct answer could get misread or misinterpreted or followed incorrectly, perhaps resulting in dire consequence.
I have always favored online forums as a means to keep the climbing community at large closer together, instead of a resource for information to be used in life-threatening circumstance.
The best thing to do for any safety type information is to seek someone more experienced than you out and have them show you once or twice, watch you for mistakes, and ensure your safety with you.
That being said, was Denali frikkin' rad, or what?
[ This Message was edited by: sharmagod on 2002-07-05 17:17 ]
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biggernhell
Jul 5, 2002, 10:06 PM
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I have to agree (in part)with newtocalgary on this. It has to be very difficult for beginning climbers to sort through all of the information on this site and know what to use and what to ignore. And, I admit that looking at the amount of experience of the person posting the information is a pretty good guideline. But, it can also be very misleading. There are alot of people out there who may have been climbing for decades, but very infrequently and/or possibly in an unsafe manner the whole time.(from Boy Scout Masters toproping through pulleys to euro deathknot using partners) Then there are those of us that may not have had several decades of experience, but have filled the last few years almost completly with climbing, and take every bit of advice that we give very, very seriously, because we know that the lives of the people who are reading the advice may very well depend on it.
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jumaringjeff
Jul 5, 2002, 10:44 PM
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I'm glad this issue has been brought up, as I agree that a lot of the advice I see here comes from users with little experience. I myself have only been climbing for 3 years, so I tend not to add to very many of the discussions here. When it comes to giving advice, I stick to the techniques and concepts that I feel confident I have mastered (which aren't many yet) and have been properly trained on by others with much more experience than I.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if some of the novice climbers (like myself) would stick to giving advice on the things they've been trained on and mastered through experience, then that could prevent the passing of bad/incorrect information that could lead to someone getting hurt or killed.
This site is one of the best resources for accurate/correct information on climbing. Let's keep it that way.
-jj
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verticallaw
Jul 5, 2002, 10:56 PM
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Like wise! this is a big issue online. Kids and new climbers should be SHOWN the CORRECT WAY by profecionals. (the last thing you need to find out while taking a nasty fall is that the advice on how to tie a "BETTER" figure of 8 was not realy as strong as that guy on line was claiming it was)
Take it with a grain of salt and FIND A PRO!
Mike
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dsafanda
Jul 5, 2002, 11:00 PM
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Such is the nature of online forums don't you think.
I mean...if a doctor went to an online medical forum he would appalled by the medical advice he saw exchanged between users.
If someone uses what they read on this forum as a substitute for real world experience or the advice of a professional, they are taking it way too seriously. This forum is designed purely for enjoyment! It's not an instructional manual.
That said, I have gained some valuable insight from users on this forum. I think that the quality of responses is proportional to the quality of the question being asked. Ask something specific like..."Do you like the new pulley by so and so" and you will get a long chain of sincere and helpful opinions. Ask a vague and open ended question like "advice for my first lead climb?" and you will get recommendations that could get you killed.
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-07-06 08:02 ]
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sharmagod
Jul 6, 2002, 12:27 AM
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I hope that nobody who visits this site just goes off and trys out something because it was posted on this site.Please use common sense as this is a safe sport but can also be dangerous one not knowing every little thing you do.As with previous postings I would also have to agree on this.The best post I have seen thus far on this site.
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doosh
Jul 6, 2002, 2:05 AM
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Yo! Pm me about why you edit my post, please.
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clam
Jul 6, 2002, 6:07 AM
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Good thread. Don't take what you read here as the last word but as points for further investigation. Read everything with a critical attitude and talk to real, experienced climbers in the real world. I agree with the community building aspect of the forum which someone mentioned.
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jmlangford
Jul 6, 2002, 6:28 AM
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Sharmagod makes a good point. However, if some idiot just reads some bullcrap on here and then goes out and kills himself, how is that our fault? We can tell people to use common sense and get professional guidance, etc until we are blue in the face and you will STILL have people doing STUPID things! I have seen stuff on this site that I know was purposely put up there to see if some idiot would try it. Try as hard as we might, we can't protect ALL stupid people from themselves. If someone just bee-bops onto this site and reads a forum then runs out to the rock to try it without instruction, then he is a menace to society if he's that ignorant!
I have seen tons of beginners on this site that have asked intelligent questions and that I wouldn't worry about too much.
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-07-05 23:41 ]
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atg200
Jul 6, 2002, 2:54 PM
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You have been climbing for 2 1/2 decades? Wow - I had you pegged for a gumbie based on your irrational "i'll never use dropped gear" posts. The advice you give definitely worries me.
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samshafer
Jul 6, 2002, 4:30 PM
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I take most advice w/ a grain of salt anyway, but I have found some good hints in the threads on this site. Specifically, a better method for rebelaying the rope during rope solo.
Advice online has to be weighed against your knowledge & common sense just as advice received in person does.
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biggernhell
Jul 6, 2002, 8:21 PM
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jmlangford has a good point. As much as I hate to see or hear about people getting hurt, "you pays your money and you takes you chances." Climbing is simply another means to prevent the stupid from inheriting the earth.
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eminem_imposter
Jul 6, 2002, 10:33 PM
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i agree with what you said almost completely, except the fact that there is no real way to guage a climbers experience without directly talking to them. i've been climbing for just short of 3 years and i've only been a member of this sight for a little over a year. also, someone that has only been climging for a year may be better than someone who has climbed for 10 years. it all depends on how often you climb. the person climbing for a year could climb every day all day and the person climbing for ten years could climb once a month. all im saying is that there is no real way to tell how much experience a person has from this website.
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doosh
Jul 6, 2002, 11:22 PM
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word to that.
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bulldog
Jul 7, 2002, 12:20 AM
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It should go without saying that any information whatsoever gleaned off the internet should be taken with a grain of salt and measured against experience and solid knowledge.
I unfortunately deal with stupid "internet knowledge" on a daily basis. Every damn client I see seems to have some wacko medical knowledge that they'd like to apply to a given situation. Many bring in printed web pages. The trash gets full quickly around here.
Bulldog
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jammer
Jul 8, 2002, 7:12 PM
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hey gwad ... mind turning off the cap key?
As for this subject, it is a shame that people can not be honest enough to admit that they don't know the subject, but then again, that's not real. I came to this site to get to see who is climbing and to pick their brain on certain subjects. If I can't understand their typing, besides spelling, then I don't even consider their answer. Some people who have replied sound as if they have been high for weeks and are rambeling on just to see their information on screen. Then there are those who sound as if they know what they are saying. At any case, I would suggest researching the subject prior to asking. Then you should be able to sift out the real answers. It is also my belief that anybody who is just getting into climbing not to get their skill building ideas from the web, as stated prior to this reply, but to go to a gym and/or take a course. Those who have been climbing for awhile knows when they are being mislead ... but those who have not, don't. Be very careful with the information a stranger gives you anyway ... we have all learnt this as a child. This is worth holding onto ... it will save your life.
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doosh
Jul 8, 2002, 7:14 PM
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How many times will gawd post before you all realize that he is ALL CAPS, ALL THE TIME.
The best climber out on any given day is the LOUDEST.
Duh...
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jds100
Jul 8, 2002, 7:20 PM
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That's some pretty Gawd-awful advice there, Gawd. And please disengage your "Caps Lock" key.
It makes no sense to say that anyone asking for advice "should be smart enough", "have the correct skill-sets", "and...experience to figure it out"; people ask for advice to learn from others, and there's nothing wrong with doing so. No one is "too dumb" because they ask questions.
In this case, Gawd is right: "Don't listen to advice here."
David is right when he says "such is the nature of forums". People who are asking for and receiving advice are, I'm sure, just using the forum(s) as another source of information, comparing it to what they read elsewhere, see on video, hear from other people directly, learn from instruction, and experience first-hand. A preponderance of differing opinions on some questions and issues, and the weight of agreement on others, bears some value to the reader.
I don't worry about the ability of RC.com readers to discern arrogance, stupidity, lack of experience, etc., in replies. If you disagree with someone's advice, hey, it's an open forum, jump in and say so. But, I don't think anyone is taking one piece of advice as gospel.
By the way, Gawd: "All climbing leads to the mountains"??? I'm in the midwest of the United States, and I've got plenty of climbing without mountains.
Loud climbers are the worst.
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radistrad
Jul 8, 2002, 7:21 PM
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I think this is where the "Q" ratings come into play. A good "Q" to me means that the poster may, just may know what he is talking about, and a bad "Q" well they think Stealth Rubber comes on the Dodge Stealth (car).
I like to pratice what I preach, and I think that many others do that as well, but yes, you do have the "newbiees", and those who are inexperienced giving advice like they know their stuff. I would hope that every one takes advice from this forum lightly. I for one would not learn to climb from the internet. For me this is just another way to pass my 8 hour day.
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doosh
Jul 8, 2002, 7:53 PM
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Your Q-rating, like most numerical ratings systems, is completely subjective.
As such, it is unrelaible for quanitfying anything... much less the quality of advice you get.
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dondiego
Jul 8, 2002, 7:54 PM
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The only thing more irritating to me than seeing bad beta in the threads is when someone that has experience tells a gumbie to go buy a certain book and learn it there. I don't want anyone above or below me that learned to climb, tie knotts, or set anchors by reading a book. Just my .02.
-Don Diego-
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passthepitonspete
Jul 8, 2002, 8:02 PM
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Be sure to check the credibility of your source.
Credibility is based on experience, not website points or Q-votes.
While there are exceptions, a good starting criterion is years of experience. I'd rather read advice from someone who has been climbing for two or three decades than for two or three years.
I can't believe I actually have to write this, but that experience should take place on rock and not plastic!
One of the best sources of technical information can be found at the Petzl website. - study it well!
Finally you should be certain that you are reading the advice of a bona fide Wall Doctor - do not be fooled by Big Wall Theorists!
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radistrad
Jul 8, 2002, 8:12 PM
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yes, perhaps I am wrong about the "Q" votes, it is a start none the less, but they can all be artifically inflated by friends and so on, I'll take the crash for that.
So what is the "Q" really for then?
I like what PTPP had to say about years of experience on rock....
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acrophobic
Jul 8, 2002, 8:16 PM
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gawd: this might be useful for you:
the old saying goes: Anyone can sound intelligent on a message board... that's what search engines are for
besides that, i do find these boards helpful.. but always double check your info.
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