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grzes73
May 13, 2005, 12:03 PM
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hi,
have been climbing for almost a year now, indoors only. I'm somewhere in 5.10's now. climbing twice a week and doing some pullups with weights. heard that the best way to improve forearm strength is to dead hang on the training board. could you give me some advice on how to train? how many repetitions in one set. how long pauses should I take in-between? open hold only?
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andy_reagan
May 13, 2005, 12:27 PM
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I would skip the hangboard for right now and increase your climbing time. If you're climbing two days a week now, I would step that up to three days a week. Something like Monday - Wednesday - Saturday, or whatever your schedule can swing. The important thing if you're climbing three days a week is to make your rest days in between your climbing days count. During the rest phase of a schedule is where you're actually getting strong, so its important to pay attention to it.
I always put emphasis on actual climbing over such training devices as the hangboard and campus board. This attitude helps me develop and maintain vital movement skills that would otherwise stagnate while I was busy working on hypertrophy on the hangboard. Its just not worth it in light of the fact that climbing is a movement based sport, not one of pure strength or power.
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overlord
May 13, 2005, 12:29 PM
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jup, definitelystay away from hangboards for now. develop techniuqe.
but if you really want to learn how to use the hangboard, search this forum. and, yes deadhangs are the proper way to use a hangboard.
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boulderman
May 13, 2005, 12:57 PM
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Andy, In reply to: not one of pure strength or power
While I generally agree with your post, I think pure strength and power, (especially in the hands), goes along way. If your hands are so strong that thin crimps feel like jugs then you could just campus small crimps. I'm just playing devils advocate here, but, I do believe campus training and hang board training are both important parts of moving towards a higher level of climbing.
I would definitely move to 3 days a week, and if all you are doing is routes, then maybe even push to 4 days if you can, but listen to your body, rest is also important. Campus/hang board puts a lot of strain on the tendons so I would put in another 6 mos-1 yr. of hard training by climbing, concentrating on technique and footwork, core strength, and bouldering before you look into campus training.
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j_ung
May 13, 2005, 2:03 PM
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Andy and boulderman, trophys all around! :D
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nheston
May 13, 2005, 2:58 PM
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If you want to spend a little time learning from one of the world's experts in training then buy this book...
"Training for Climbing" by Eric J. Horst
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0762723130/qid=1115996179/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-3215240-3702405?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
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mother_sheep
May 13, 2005, 3:18 PM
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What's a dead hang anyway? Is that when you just hang from your pullup bar until you can't take it anymore?
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smearhound
May 13, 2005, 3:22 PM
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If you're just hanging off the jug holds on the hangboard, or a pull-up bar, it will help you to improve forearm endurance. (This is distinct from using the hangboard for improving finger strength).
Eric Horst, in his highly recommended text "Training for Climbing," advises staring with short hangs and longer rests, starting with 20" hangs followed by 40" rests, for 10-20 reps. As your forearm endurance improves you make the hang interval longer and the rest interval shorter. Keep an eye out for any shoulder pain and stop immediately if you feel any.
The real question you have to ask is, "Do I have a problem with forearm endurance?" If the answer is yes, then training as suggested above will help. Since nobody can train everything all the time, assessing your weaknesses (everybody has them) is vital to making improvements by working specifically on those weaknesses. This could involve finding routes that address your problem areas or exercizes that target your shortcomings.
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grzes73
May 13, 2005, 5:57 PM
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thanx for comments.
I thought that improving my forearm strength would help me out on the overhangs. right now I'm much better on vertical walls (comparing the same grade: vertical vs overhang), as soon as it goes into even slight overhang I'm quickly pumping up my forearms. from this I concluded that I have a problem with forearm endurance.
right or wrong?
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andy_reagan
May 13, 2005, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: thanx for the comments
No problem.
In reply to: as soon as it goes into even slight overhang I'm quickly pumping up my forearms. from this I concluded that I have a problem with forearm endurance. right or wrong?
Although it may seem like your forearms "just arn't strong enough," likely it is your technique that is the ultimate culprit of this failure of strength. Performance Rock Climbing, which is by the way an excellent book about training for climbing, teaches us that our weaknesses often wear masks and can confuse us when attempting to look objectively at our climbing (I think especially with only a small amount of experience).
So, is it that you simply lack the forearm strength to hold on for the amount of contact time required for overhanging routes or is it that you have not fully refined your technique to the utmost of your ability? That's for you to objectively decide and deal with.
Good luck!
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tobym
May 14, 2005, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: as soon as it goes into even slight overhang I'm quickly pumping up my forearms. from this I concluded that I have a problem with forearm endurance. right or wrong?
ahh, Andy beat me to it!
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gunkiemike
May 14, 2005, 11:28 AM
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In reply to: as soon as it goes into even slight overhang I'm quickly pumping up my forearms. from this I concluded that I have a problem with forearm endurance. right or wrong?
It could also be "core strength". You need tension in your abs, back and the rest of the torso muscles to be able to move effectively on steeper rock. Many folks sag off the holds when their core can't support them. This is related to "technique" in that a stronger core will let you transfer weight onto your feet better, and enable you to swivel your lower body as needed while your upper body is under tension. These are elements of what we recognize as technique.
My advice is do LOTS of climbing on steep rock, but on big holds so you don't blow your finger tendons. Such terrain can be hard to find, esp outdoors. Be creative - you can do laps climbing the underside of a ladder. Playground equipment can be fun too, until they pedophile unit hauls you away. :lol:
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pushsendnorcal
May 14, 2005, 2:41 PM
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The question still has To actually answer the question
Take G number of grips (no less than 3, no more than 8)
Hang for H amount of seconds
~2-5 seconds for absolute/maximum strength
~5-8 seconds for high end strength
~8-12 seconds for base level of strength (best for starters)
~12-30 seconds for low-end strength
Rest of R amount of time
~1min for strength/exhuastion training
~2min for moderate recovery of strength
~3min for full recovery of strength
~5min for supercompensation recovery of strength ( i only use when switching to the next grip)
Repeat hangs of grips by S number of times (aka sets per grip)
~1 set for low amounts of repetitive exhuastion and technical proficiency
~2&3 sets of moderate amounts of repetitive exhuastion and technical proficiency
~4 sets of both training repetitive exhuastion and technical proficiency
Structure of training
For example you choose to train under the perimeter of 8-12seconds, you start each set hanging for 8 seconds (this should be at your max), once all sets have 8 seconds in it, the next session can either have 9,10,11 or 12seconds. But if the weight (either asistance or resistance amount of weights) is at your maximum level of strength, it is unlikely you can jump from hanging at 8sec to 12 sec the next training session.
Rest time for training the next time
I train between 4-5 times a week but I still only train the fingerboard twice a week, on monday and thursday. 3 times is also fine for the more experience trainee. It is crucial to preform contrast baths, proper warm-ups/downs and finger stretching. For contrast baths, find it on the net, it is far far far superior to just icing or just hot water.
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ermsam
May 15, 2005, 10:55 AM
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a usefull reply at last.
I understand from your outline that you would do one rep per set, did I get this correct?
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andy_reagan
May 15, 2005, 12:43 PM
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One rep in this case would be the duration of the hang (the duration depending upon what you are trying to target, power, strength, etc). You would want PLENTY of rest in between each hang, especially when first starting out, so yes, one hang, accompanied with one rest, would be one set.
I might add that using the hangboard should not be thought of as a supplemental to your existing climbing time. Instead, it should be thought of as a replacement for climbing time. Its obviously a very stressful way to train (thus making it beneficial if used properly) so it should not be added haphazardly to a schedule.
I still think if you're only climbing two days a week you should add another day of actual climbing and see what that does. After you've done that for a few weeks, you could even experiment with adding another day (if you want to keep the intensity low and the volume high on most of the days). Or, you could slowly increase the intensity of the three days.
I don't understand the attraction to the hangboard, even now. Six months ago I was very interested in using the hangboard to become "stronger." I guess being on the road for 3 months bouldering taught me I still have a LONG way to go technique wise before something like dead hang time is my primary weakness (remember the book PRC!).
I hope my reply will be useful to you. 8^)
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pushsendnorcal
May 15, 2005, 3:11 PM
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no reps would be done, just remind yourself to fill the amount of sets with the X amount of static hangs
replace reps for seconds
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ermsam
May 26, 2005, 8:19 PM
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Thanks for the usefull imput.
I have been (just started, 2 or 3 sessions in) doing 2 sets where a set consists of a 5 second hang with a 1minute rest between hangs for 3 hangs, then rest 5 minutes before doing another set of 3
erm, that is to say:
5 sec hang, 1 min rest x3
5 min rest
5 sec hang, 1 min rest x3
I can see that it would be benefical to my health at this stage to increase the hang length to 10 seconds..
I think the above could be good compromise of a good amount of rest and a shorter session length..What do you think.
I recently became a father so am trying to find super quick ways to train. I know that there are no shortcuts, but I find it tricky to fit in even 3 hour long sessions a week at the moment.
I am starting to get the hang of:
one wall session a week:arc for 30 mins and interval training for endurance in a bouldering wall, 1 hr.
2 pullup/lock off and dead hang sessions, 40 mins.
I am familiar with the "pullups are no use for climbing" debate but am really not strong and improving pullup strength is part of training lock offs, which I think are usefull..
Any thoughts on how my minimum training program could be made more effecient?
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