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euroford
May 16, 2005, 5:06 PM
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so i was on my standard 4 mile walk with my dog last night, and as usuall my mind is drifting around thinking of various things. i got to thinking about aid climbing and was thinking about the new ting-off method (ala dangle style) i had learned and was compairing it in my head with the 4-aider/adjustble daisy/fifi hook method i had always used before. it got me to thinking that obviously ron's method wouldn't be very good for hooking, camhooking or anything very dicey becouse if you dropped a camhook o blew a piece you would obviously drop your whole aider and leave yourself kinda screwed.
so, this got me to thinking about blowing an aid move and going for a ride, which of course got me to thinking about my first lead fall on aid where i blew a small nut and then proceeded to rip out most a rivit ladder before finnaly finding a solid one.
so then i started thinking about rivit ladders and for some reason i got to thinking about methods for making them.
years ago i had the summer project of finishing out my parents basement. i attached footer boards for the stud walls to the slab using a little hilti powder actuated nailer. huh, it got me to wondering, why havn't i ever heard of somebody doing this before. should be a heck of allot quicker and easyer than hand drilling a hole and pounding in a machine screw. the little hilit i used was definitly even lighter and about the same size as the petzl rockpeck i'd used for rivits in the past.
i mean, the way i see it the whole point of a rivit ladder is laziness. if you wern't so lazy you'd just bolt it right? but you are lazy, so you just drill a little hole and pount in a rivit. shit, why not just grab a little homemade hanger, place it between the rock and your little hilit jobber, tap, BANG, next!
lol, i have dreams of cliffhanger bolt guns...
but really, this isn't something i would ever bother doing, but i'm really surprised that i've never heard of anybody else doing. sure woulda been easier than hauling that compressor!!!
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pmyche
May 16, 2005, 5:58 PM
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stuplication
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euroford
May 17, 2005, 12:03 PM
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my dog would certainly love that!
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lambone
May 17, 2005, 4:02 PM
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Ever hear or the Compressor route on Cerro Torre?
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peroxide
May 17, 2005, 4:09 PM
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The first bolts/rivets I ever placed were in concrete.
While hard to place, I found them to be NOT as bad as I thought they would be. Warren Harding went down in my estimation.
Then I went and set up a small one pitch aid climb in Granite in the middle of nowhere portugal. I needed to back up a cam in a pod for my base anchor and had no other available pro. The hammer comes out and I put in a rivet.
Drilling in granite is a serious chore. NOTHING like concrete. I almost botched the rivet as well with a mislaid blow. That would of been awful.
Do not underestimate the differences between mediums.
Peroxide
ps How does the dangle system work?
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euroford
May 17, 2005, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: Do not underestimate the differences between mediums.
yeah that leads me to wonder if a PA nailer would be tough enough to rivit grantite, but i think it would be. concrete is very poor in sheer, i would think that rivits in that stuff are waaaaaay sketchy!
In reply to: ps How does the dangle system work?
considering that he went to the trouble of making a movie to illistrate it, i'll recomend that you buy the movie "clean walls" so you can see yourself. you could also PM Dangle and ask him, but i rekin he'll just tell ya to buy his movie :)
(thats what i would do!)
In reply to: Ever hear or the Compressor route on Cerro Torre?
yeah, but i figure the PA gun would be a hella lot easier to haul!!
LOL, i hope some n00b doesn't read this. kids, please, do not start shooting the crags full of rivits with your dads hilit framing gun!
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lambone
May 17, 2005, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Do not underestimate the differences between mediums. yeah that leads me to wonder if a PA nailer would be tough enough to rivit grantite, but i think it would be.
no way
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euroford
May 17, 2005, 8:48 PM
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well surely somebody has to have tried, i can't imagine i'm the only loony that has thought this up.
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dangle
May 18, 2005, 1:54 AM
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I agree that WHAT you drill makes a hell of a difference. Around here we have lots of basalt (among many other types of rock) which is black and iron hard. I've spent hours drilling one hole by hand. When Bosch came out with the Bulldog the local construction supply (where I used to buy dynamite) allowed me to try one out on the basalt out back.
I drilled 2" in seconds pulled it out and said I WANT ONE.
When it comes to "quickie" bolts in sandstone some things can be used on a temporary basis allowing for hole enhancement later that will permit a drilled angle which I consider the best long term arrangement if done properly. This is less likely effective on "hard" rock.
As for T-ing off; R&I wanted me to write it up with diagrams they would provide. I felt without photos it wouldn't fly well, so even though the video will probably never show a profit (especially for "talent" rather than the director) I recommend it nonetheless for teaching efficacy.
When it comes to dicey anchors T-ing off can place extra outward force on the placement causing it to blow so use caution and (un)common sense.
Good luck and good hunting,
Ron Olevsky
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estwing
May 22, 2005, 9:48 PM
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I don't think that the hilti would work. My thoughts are based on two facts. One, that I have had even short 1/4" nails spall (chip out the surrounding material) and not hold in old concrete (which is nowhere near the hardness of granite). Two, the most powerful charge that you can buy (black I think) which is meant for use in really old, hard concrete is still not enough sometimes, and causes increased chances of spall (higher charge level more spall).
Doesn't work in hard rock.
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ammon
May 22, 2005, 11:11 PM
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Yes Euro people have tried this. It does not work. Even if you had the power to penetrate granite it's a bad idea because they would wiggle loose after a ton of traffic.
Pmyche, actually "aid climbers" or just plain old "climbers" who would need this kind of technology are anything BUT lazy. How many bigwalls have you put up? It's a LOT of work.
Cheers, Ammon
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lambone
May 23, 2005, 2:17 AM
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I think Pmyche has spent his fair share of drilling in granite.
However, I don't agree with his "aid climbers are too dumb tocome up with good ideas" comment.
Of course you could allways take the Sloan approach and just tote a Bulldog to sink those fatty 3/8 inchers... :roll:
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valeberga
May 23, 2005, 3:12 AM
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No nail is going to simply penetrate solid rock in one shot. Concrete is play-doh compared to rock.
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atropine
May 28, 2005, 7:29 AM
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Granite may be tough stuff, but what we call a Ram Set in NZ (presume the same thing) will put a nail through 10mm solid steel girders - probably enogh to hold body weight? Perhaps a little antisocial tho..
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blawless
Jun 21, 2005, 6:47 AM
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Nice work Pmyche.
Euroford wrote:
i mean, the way i see it the whole point of a rivit ladder is laziness. if you wern't so lazy you'd just bolt it right?
Nope.
Peroxide wrote:
Warren Harding went down in my estimation.
Not a chance.
Dangle wrote:
(where I used to buy dynamite)
Classic!
…a drilled angle which I consider the best long term arrangement if done properly.
With all due respect, how long-term is ‘long term’? Cro-moly steel pins eventually rust and don’t last forever, as you know. Can these angles be removed in the future, when they are corroded beyond safe use (or hopefully before) such that another fresh angle can be replaced back into the same hole? Will the hole last for multiple replacements over many decades? I don’t have too much experience with sandstone and was just curious. Thanks.
Valeberga wrote:
No nail is going to simply penetrate solid rock in one shot.
Nuff said.
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skinner
Jun 22, 2005, 1:56 PM
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How about instead of a nail gun.. a nail rifle? A really high powered one with a big scope. Then I could sit out at the crag in my lawn chair, and set routes all day! :wink:
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dangle
Jun 23, 2005, 12:20 AM
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I might have easily missed the question. You should have PMed me.
Perhaps the best examples of GOOD drilled angles can be found on Sheer Lunacy.
Before going up on the route these angles were thoroughly cleaned, primed, and then triple coat painted with high quality lacquer.
The holes were then carefully step drilled, then worked to shape. The angles were then placed with careful blows and incorporated with a mortar composed of rock dust a windshield sealer (made to bond to silica!). This is not so much for strength as it is to seal the hole and prevent moisture accumulation which could react with airborne carbon dioxide to produce a mild carbolic acid which could over time cause failure.
Any more questions? Bolts? Dynamite? Homemade C4?
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no_one
Jun 23, 2005, 12:43 AM
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Ha Ha Ha! I like Skinners idea! Now if we could just attach the end of a rope to the shot, we could fix the lines from our lawn chairs. This ofcourse would be better than a whole rivit ladder! Right? :wink:
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skinner
Jun 23, 2005, 1:11 AM
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Wow.. I am impressed with the amount of care dangle takes in preparing and placing a drilled angle. I guess we could refer to this method as the:
“dangle – angle”?
(Sorry couldn’t resist).
I am sure this is the way to go in sandstone as I know that standard bolts really don’t cut it in such soft rock but if I am correct.. this is the only type of rock you would use this method? It seems like it would be ridiculous to do that much drilling in hard rock…. dangle?
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dangle
Jun 23, 2005, 1:15 AM
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Obviously you missed the 60 Minutes last month thgat showed a whole new generation of user friendly private inexpensive often vertical taleoff aircraft, including a double counter-rotating rotor ultralight copter that requires no license and one learns to fly in minutes on a tethered down version!
I WANT one!
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blawless
Jun 23, 2005, 6:36 AM
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Dangle-
Hmmm. Interesting idea to use windshield sealer. As far as painting them, how about getting a batch of 1/2" angles powder-coated in the specific color of the rock? It might be a little more expensive but would be way more durable than spray paint, especially during the initial placement of the piton. I like the idea of using a mortar (especially the ones that go boom…) to cement the piton in place, although as far as sealing the hole, I wonder how much good it would do, considering that Navajo sandstone is a porous material, when compared to solid granite or granodiorite. It has been proven that sealed bolts in granite corrode faster than normal, due to moisture not being able to easily escape from the hole. How long would you say that a drilled angle in sandstone will last, best case scenario? At the point when it does become a questionable anchor, what is the best method for replacing the anchor? Are there no decent bolts available for use in sandstone that can be removed without damaging the hole?
I don’t mean to razzle you, Ron. I’ve just been working on a lot of bolt replacement stuff for granite recently and thought I’d bring up the subject of longevity here.
I’d love to hear anything you have to say about dynamite or C4. Cheers!
Bryan
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dangle
Jun 23, 2005, 8:05 PM
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Sorry to say that my mortar isn't meant to go boom, nor the climber who uses it.
How long do they last? Well I've reused some after more than a quarter century without going boom. They can be pulled if loose and replaced with a larger pin (check hole depth).
Part of it depends on how good the sandstone is, what elemental exposure it has etc.
Don't get me going on explosives. If Al Qaeda really wanted to cause trouble they actually COULD blow Glen Canyon effectively. It probably wouldn't kill as many outright as 911 but long term impact to our economy, especially our ability to feed ourselves after losing our prime agricultural center would be far greater.
I tried to present a viable plan to a local reporter just to encourage pre-emptive measures, but he thought I was out in left field.
He probably would have said the same about the twin towers being brought down by box cutters...
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dangle
Jun 23, 2005, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: Wow.. I am impressed with the amount of care dangle takes in preparing and placing a drilled angle. I guess we could refer to this method as the: “ dangle – angle”? (Sorry couldn’t resist).
Actually my assumed name was always meant TO BE a contraction of "drilled angle"
and I thought you were trolling me with the "using top steps is nutz".
Piton Ron Olevsky
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skinner
Jun 24, 2005, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: Actually my assumed name was always meant TO BE a contraction of "drilled angle"
Makes perfect sense now :)
You are the original inventor of the drilled angle aren't you?
Which now that I have read the full detailed description, which consists of a lot more then my original image of a hole with an angle pounded in it..
I can't wait to get out to the sandstone that I grew up on and replace some really old rusty bolts.
In reply to: and I thought you were trolling me with the "using top steps is nutz".
Sorry I gave you the wrong impression. I think "topstepping is nutz" because it's scary as $h*t up there :shock:
I just don't operate well when my knees are knocking. For me, I like to stay a step or two down with my aiders wrapped around the back of my calf if it's overhanging at all. Then use my long lanky physique to do the reaching!
BTW.. I bought your Clean Aid Video. You make it look waaay too easy! Where is all the grunting, dropping gear, swearing and blood?
Just kidding, Great video, I can only imagine that the making of it, was a lot more involved then it appears.
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dangle
Jun 24, 2005, 4:48 AM
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You are too kind skinner. Thank you.
It is now MOST important for me to hasten a correction;
I am NOT the originator of the drilled angle. I merely refined my own style of placing them.
As for grunting and swearing etc., much of it ended up on the cutting room floor. Best gear drop goes to Jeff who inadvertantly disengaged a large video cam battery onto a party 70m below.
Seriously though top stepping can make any aid climber more efficient and indeed by opening up more options one can get BETTER placements so its worth getting more comfortable doing it even if only for when you really need it.
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