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crackaddict
Jul 9, 2002, 1:33 AM
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In the last couple of years I have been doing a great deal of sport climbing along with a lot of trad climbing.
When I get to the top of a route. I either use draws to get lowered off, or I rap off to prevent wear on rap hangers.
But recently I have noticed that a lot sport climbers are not doing this! And going directly through the anchors to be lowered when the are done with the route. In stead of raping off. Especially on on the Fixe clip hangers. Don't they understand that they are slowly wearing out the hangers? These hangers don't do any good to anyone if there is only a thread of metal left on them.
If you don't belive it go do Watermellon Sugar 11c in Maple Canyon. Check out the rap hangers there. There is only about a 16th" of metal left on each of the 2 Fixe clip hangers at the top. I was pretty freaked when I saw this. And lucky that the guy that did the route before us left some quick links at the top to replace them. I am just suprised to see this especially at an area where the climbs range from 11-13's. These are not just beginers doing this. These are people that climb in the 11-13 range also.
Why is this occuring?
Sport climbers are always saying how much safer sport climbing is. But it does'nt seem like everyone is practicing saftey.
Are sport climbers just getting lazy and careless?
Has anyone else noticed this?
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-07-08 18:37 ]
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rrrADAM
Jul 9, 2002, 2:03 AM
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I notice it...
The last time I was at Williamson, I finished a route and set up a TR off my draws, before lowering I noticed that the climb next to me was set up as a TR through the anchors. I had to use my own draws after suggesting, and offering, as he had already lowered, and was getting ready to belay one of many on the TR. Both of those biners were worn half way through, because of this.
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arsenalcrater
Jul 9, 2002, 2:23 AM
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Yes, This is a HUGE problem at Jack's Canyon. I don't and haven't trusted those cold welded shuts for awhile, even though I have not heard of fixed anchor failure yet...just human errorl. It is just a matter of time I suppose. I go trad, wall or alpine climbing instead. Don't get me wrong, I have had lots of fun out at Jacks...but it is a time bomb ready to happen
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climbinganne
Jul 9, 2002, 3:33 AM
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Seen it, hate it!!! This past weekend I took two newbies out...let them know in my home crag we rap not lower.
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crackaddict
Jul 10, 2002, 2:39 AM
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Well it seems that some have noticed this.
And the rest seem to be walking around with blinders on.
I just want to add this to those of you that practice lowering and top ropeing through rap hangers.
STOP NOW! AND SAVE THE REST OF US!
As you do it. Watch the rope and notice the sawing motion it is making through the hangers. Because that is what it is. A big rope saw. Think about how much the wear is weakening the hangers. Notice you are on only two hangers and that both are being worn the same. Sure there are two hangers there. But it is a good chance that if one breaks the other will follow because the are both as weak. Not a nice thing to think about when you are trusting only two bolts on a TR huh!
Just remember nothing last forever! And these are time bombs waiting to happen!
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beyond_gravity
Jul 10, 2002, 2:54 AM
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I dont do it, But I dont get why route setters dont just put two bolts at the top with quicklinks. You can TR or Lower off these and whenever they get worn down someone just puts new ones on.
This would work so much better, I've left 6 quicklinks at the top of routes with Rap Rings that are worn thin. If everyone would do this...
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smithclimber
Jul 10, 2002, 3:40 AM
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I am SO HAPPY to see this has been brought up and that this practice is a SEVERE source of frustration, not only for myself, but others as well!!!
Beyond gravity, we appreciate your adding the rapid links, but think how much longer they would last if you'd TR off your biners and then rap off the rapid links when you're done with the route. Adding the links is only partially helping the problem if you continue to TR on them. If everyone would TR on their own gear (biners) and then always rap off the permanent anchors that are in place (be they Rap Hangers, chain, rapid links, cold shuts, rappel rings, etc.), we would only have to replace them about 1/1000th of the time!
Sorry about the slight rant, this is one of my biggest pet peeves.
[ This Message was edited by: smithclimber on 2002-07-09 20:41 ]
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ktwo
Jul 10, 2002, 4:02 AM
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I always used to lower through the rap anchors. This was what I was taught by the person who took me outside. Since then, I have learned differently and have actually installed quick links on the top of about 5 routes that I like, and are used alot. I encourage everyone to go to the hardware store with $20, buy some links, and stick them on your favorite routes.
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frawg
Jul 10, 2002, 4:18 AM
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I lower thru the chains/ whatever is there. But EVERYTIME i lead it, if i am setting up a toprope, i set it up with 2 Quickdraws attached to the chains. I'm not about to leave some gear behind ofr some jackhole to steal.
Peaze
frawg
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climbsomething
Jul 10, 2002, 4:57 AM
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you go chris/crackaddict!
chris has taught me the way. rapping off really is best. still makes me nervous tho! but that's no excuse
and yes, quicklinks are a great idea! a very easy way to give back to your fellow climbers, and help keep people safer!
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daisuke
Jul 10, 2002, 5:06 AM
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I've seen it all when it comes to this, personally I lower thru the rap stations when done with a climb but always leave a TR set up with draws. rapping usually takes up too much time and isn't as safe as lowering in my oppinion.
D
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jtcronk
Jul 10, 2002, 5:43 AM
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When rappelling, use an autoblock setup. If your rap gets out of control, it locks up automatically. It's better to rap than lower through the anchors....
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stevematthys
Jul 10, 2002, 6:25 AM
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probably too lazy to set it up any other way
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phylp
Jul 10, 2002, 4:55 PM
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THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for bringing this up. I think many sport climbers have never noticed or thought about this. It's a problem every sport area I have climbed. Routinely toproping and lowering directly thru the anchors trashes them pretty quickly. We already owe a huge debt of gratitude to the first ascensionists who spend their money equiping these routes to begin with.
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mikedano
Jul 10, 2002, 5:28 PM
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I too am glad this topic has been brought up.
For those of you who "top rope with biners but then lower off of the anchors"--STOP IT. Don't be lazy. Don't make other people have to replace those links. Do it the better way by rappelling off the top.
Think about it: Popular routes get climbed several times a day. If everyone lowers off, that's a lot of rope rubbing through those anchors. By lowering off instead of rappelling, you're making it that much LESS SAFE for those who come after you.
Just take the few extra seconds to rappel off the climb. And if you're not used to rappelling--LEARN HOW. Rappelling is an integral part of climbing, and it should be second nature to anyone who climbs. And if you think rappelling is more dangerous than lowering off, you must be a pro at tieing in, because it's just as easy to mess that up as it is to set up a rappel.
Stop being lazy. Rap off.
Ok, that's the end of my rant.
Over and out.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2002, 5:44 PM
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A lot of this is local custom. In SoCal it is accepted practice for the last person in the party to lower off the shuts, but for everyone else to lower or TR thru draws. Even the guidebooks explain that the "fixed gear is for lowering." The FAists, who wrote the guidebooks, maintain the routes.
-Jay
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beyond_gravity
Jul 10, 2002, 5:44 PM
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Lowering is safer then rapping. People die rapping because there is so much more to go wrong. However, I like rapping more simply because I am in control!
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jt512
Jul 10, 2002, 6:06 PM
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Quote:
Lowering is safer then rapping. People die rapping because there is so much more to go wrong.
Wrong. Not in sport climbing. We've been thru this before. The horrendous rappelling accidents that you hear about are almost always in trad or aid climbing, not in sport climbing, where the rappels are usually short and rarely done under adverse circumstances.
Quote:
However, I like rapping more simply because I am in control!
Right. And that is why rapping is safer than lowering. It's all on you. There is no possiblity of miscommunication with your belayer, which is the cause of most lowering accidents.
-Jay
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rocknpowda
Jul 10, 2002, 6:37 PM
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I think it is way easier to clean an overhung or angling route by lowering than by rapelling.
Even if you don't, people are always going to be lowering through chains or other fixed anchors. Maybe people should start doing something about the problem (worn anchors) rather than bitching about/at people who lower. Putting in quicklinks is a good start. Maybe buy new chain for the local driller and give him/her a six pack for their time spent replacing the worn out stuff.
Has anyone approached the ASCA to see if replacing sport anchors is something that they do? It sounds like something they should get into because I don't think many FA'ists are going to redress their anchors 5,10,20, or 30 years after they put up the route. I'd much rather be climbing or bolting something new than going out and paying to replace anchors on the routes I put up years and years ago.
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tyraidbp
Jul 10, 2002, 6:57 PM
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See what you have to remember is sport climbers are lazy. That is why they are sport climbers not because it is safer. I personally used to do a fair amount of sport and anytime I set a TR it was off the draws, but for lowering, I used the shuts. Just last week I was at The New and Summersville which for those of you who dont know are in West Virginia about 20 minutes apart. Now at The New, it is standard that you do a "spider rappel" but at Summersville I heard nothing about any of it. This folks is why I boulder!!! Personally I think that the rappel vs. lower is solely dependent on what the person cleaning the route is comfortable with. I mean lets face it, a great deal of people climbing sport routes are doing so because its easier than trad.
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smithclimber
Jul 10, 2002, 7:01 PM
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Rocknpowda,
That's totally a classic case of fixing the symptom rather than the cause.
If we all did our part, we would have virtually no need to buy chain or six packs for the FA.
How about we take a proactive, rather than reactive, approach to problems.
Instead of using ANOTHER grocery bag to carry your milk, bread, and peanut butter to the car (after all, you successfully used your hands to take those 3 items up to the cashier) why not forego the bag alltogether?
Sure, we COULD recycle the bag, but why do that if we didn't REALLY NEED it to begin with. It's called "conservation", heard of it?
Sure, we COULD do this and that to help out with replacing worn anchors, but why not just eliminate (ok, SEVERLY cut down) on the need to replace them in the first place? Again, CONSERVATION.
And yes, the ASCA does replace sport anchors too.
[ This Message was edited by: smithclimber on 2002-07-10 12:11 ]
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rock_diva
Jul 10, 2002, 7:27 PM
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I was taught to always rappel, so I've been surprised lately as I've run into more climbers at crags all over that many lower down from the top bolts.
Maybe this is because they don't know any better... maybe they were taught that way.
Let's try to educate those around us that we see lowering. If you're friendly and polite, most climbers will appreciate the info - you're just trying to keep them safe, right? Not to mention the benefit of being easier on your rope, especially on overhanging or non-vertical climbs.
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crackaddict
Jul 10, 2002, 8:10 PM
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Sounds like the locals and So. Cal have it going on JT. FA's maintaining the route is a good idea.
But it does'nt seem that any other areas are encouraging it. I know in AZ the authors of guide books discourage you from lowering and TRing.
Rocknpowda brought up an interesting point though. That it much easier to clean an overhang by being lowered. I cant say that I disagree with that. Cleaning on rappel is a pain.
Maybe quick links are the only solution in this case.
It just seems like eventually something is going to happen.
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smithclimber
Jul 10, 2002, 8:29 PM
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It's usually not NECESSARY to be lowered off unless the route is very steep or traverses a lot. Please only lower if it is absolutely necessary, rather than simply because it is more "convenient".
It's more "convenient" for me to just toss my trash out the car window rather than looking for a trash can, but that doesn't mean I should do it, right?
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rocknpowda
Jul 10, 2002, 9:11 PM
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I was maybe too harsh in my original post.
Telling people to lower isn't going to fix the worn anchors in your local area. My suggestions were to help people in those areas get them fixed. Besides, don't you think that maybe if there has been enough traffic on a route to wear the anchors in half that maybe the bolts in the anchor should also be suspect and maybe replaced?
I agree that rappelling is easier on the anchor but I think fixe made those anchors specifically so that you could simply "drop" the rope in and lower off. Those of us who sport climb, which is most of us at one time or another, do it for the fun and convenience of it and lowering is often more convenient than rappelling.
Nice try with the garbage argument, that was good, but I think I'll continue to lower when I like and donate a few bucks to the ASCA to make myself feel better about it.
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