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4gottherope
May 17, 2005, 6:53 PM
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Yes, I am a noob to Trad so flame away. I took some classes, read a lot, and climbed with a guide before I every tried to lead trad. Yes, the guide was worth it. There was only the guide, my wife and me so it was great. Yes, I need to climb more with experienced climbers.
Anyway, I lead my first lead last weekend. I started on an easy 5.6 but got off line, risks of onsight, and climbed a 5.9 route. I ran into a flaring crack that I couldn't work out decent protection. I placed a small nut at a narrow point, tested it, then climbed up to a better location and got a good placment. However, when I pulled the rope up to clip the new placment I lifted the small nut out of it's placement.
I knew the placement wasn't good but I think the nut would have held if I fell on it. Yes, the placement below it was solid and would keep me off the deck.
Questions - is this common? Should I have skipped the nut since it wasn't a good placement? Is there a better way to protect a flaring crack?
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esallen
May 17, 2005, 7:02 PM
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I’d probably have clipped the nut with a 2ft sling.
Eric
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vegastradguy
May 17, 2005, 7:09 PM
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flaring cracks can be a bitch to protect. it sounds like you took the best option you had. it may have held, depending. a longer runner would prevent it popping.
i may have also tried a cam, either a smaller one deep in or a larger one further out- but a cam may not work depending on how flared the crack is.
anyway, good job keeping it together and working out at least some sort of protection. glad you didnt have to test it, though. try to work on your route-finding skills!
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azrockclimber
May 17, 2005, 7:09 PM
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it depends on how flaring...and yes there are better ways to protect a flaring crack....I don't own any of these but there are cams designed to protect flaring cracks and I have heard they work great!
However, most of us do not own any of these and have to make due with what is available at the time. sometimes you can get two lobes of a 4 cam unit in...I have used that as "okay pro."
If that nut really would have held me, but any movement on the piece itself before the fall would have dislodged it, I would have put AT LEAST a 2' runner on it. sound like you are doing fine...flared craks are not easy to protect..you really have to just take what is available.
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cruxmonger
May 17, 2005, 7:17 PM
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YOu could also have tried to place another nut at a lower placement and slung the two nuts together under tension. That way the load bearing nut wouldn't move around and dislodge itself when you climbed above it.
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euroford
May 17, 2005, 7:21 PM
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a nut can be totally bomber for a fall, yet easly fall out from outward or upward pull. you need to watch the way you use slings and draws to prevent this. you want some nice floppy 24" slings to clip those nuts with, i like the mammut 8mm jobbers. another idea is to weight down the sling to help hold it in place, you can just grab the water bottle or approach shoes off your harness and clip it to the nut.
flaring placements can be really tricky and sometimes require specialized gear. if its not flaring too bad, sometimes you can get a cam to stick with the inside cams fully compressed and the outer ones close to tipped out. i have better luck getting this to work with friends/dmms than i do camelots. another scheme is get a very small cam placed verticaly way back in the back of the crack, this works best with zero's, but can work with aliens as well. WON'T work with micro camelots or friends as they don't flex close enough to the head.
the other strategy, is to arm yourself with flare specific gear such offset alien or offset friend cams. HB offset brass nuts can also be a godsend. the HB's are just awsome and IMO can be killer almost anywhere, the others are probobly only worth investing in if you climb in areas with lots of flaring cracks (like lumpy ridge) or pin scars (like yos).
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caughtinside
May 17, 2005, 7:22 PM
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Flares are tricky. One thing I've noticed though, is that they are often not flared the entire way. That is, if you look closely, you can find parallel spots in them, or faint bottlenecks. Sometimes the lip of the crack will be uniformly flared, but if you look inside there are parallel spots.
It's just more of a pain, because you have to spend time looking closely, and you may not always get solid gear right where you want it.
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4gottherope
May 17, 2005, 7:42 PM
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Thanks for all of the good feedback. I knew about, but didn't think of, using opposing nuts. Maybe I could have made that work.
On route finding - I had the Falcon book but it didn't show that the two routes started in the same location. The 5.6 breaks around a corner and the 5.9 continues up under a 2' roof. I know this now because I picked up a local map/beta at the climbing shop. At 6'6" I didn't have any trouble with the roof.
Note to self -- always check for local maps/beta before heading out to the crag.
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texplorer
May 17, 2005, 7:49 PM
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As a budding trad climber I started with a standard rack of hexes, nuts, and a double rack of cams. Slowly my rack evolved to my preferences but I still had a tough time with those flaring placements.
A few years later I began aid climbing in Zion and Yosemite. I learned the value of HB offset nuts and offset aliens. Now I take a few of these on my rack almost everywhere and especially on climbs that have flaring cracks.
It almost seems like cheating when you just slip in a hybrid alien in a perfect placement that would be a nightmare normally.
My advice- if you climb at areas that have lots of flaring placements then think of purchasing some appropriate gear. If not, make do when you get to em and climb hard through those sections.
good luck
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pipsqueekspire
May 19, 2005, 5:57 PM
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I agree with everything stated above and just wanted to add a goofy but useful trick. I will sometimes clip something heavy to a nut that looks like it might pop out. Clipping a #4 cam to a nut will help keep it in place but it makes a loud scary mess if it does pop out. Of course hope you dont need that #4 later on! A long runner usually solves this problem in general but this trick is really useful in a key-hole type placement that will never fail a downward pull but can pop right out the top with simple flick of the rope.
-pip
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dirtineye
May 19, 2005, 6:13 PM
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where is alpnclmbr1 when you need him?
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dirtineye
May 19, 2005, 6:26 PM
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Placing a cam with the lobes in a vertical alignment is not a good idea.
Depending on two lobes of a cam to hold a fall is a bad idea.
Weighting down the sling thinking that this will keep the piece in place is interesting, but I sure would not bet on that working.
ONE person mentioned tensioned opposition (but they didn't explain it well or call it that), that would be your best bet unless you had some fancy-dan offset cams (made for flairs) Even so, if you sling a cam short you may have troubel with cam walking.
Another idea would be to try some tri-cams, but still, opposition is the best way to hold a piece in that want to lift but is otherwise sound for a downard pull.
Look around the forums for threads on tensioned opposition.
The longer sling is a good idea, but if you already know the piece may lift, oppose it AND use a long sling.
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brutusofwyde
May 20, 2005, 12:59 AM
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In reply to: Placing a cam with the lobes in a vertical alignment is not a good idea. Depending on two lobes of a cam to hold a fall is a bad idea. Weighting down the sling thinking that this will keep the piece in place is interesting, but I sure would not bet on that working.
I've done it many times, and it works very well when tensioned opposition is not available.
In reply to: ONE person mentioned tensioned opposition (but they didn't explain it well or call it that), that would be your best bet unless you had some fancy-dan offset cams (made for flairs) Even so, if you sling a cam short you may have troubel with cam walking. Another idea would be to try some tri-cams, but still, opposition is the best way to hold a piece in that want to lift but is otherwise sound for a downard pull. Look around the forums for threads on tensioned opposition. The longer sling is a good idea, but if you already know the piece may lift, oppose it AND use a long sling.
Couple of comments:
"Fancy-dan offset cams" are not the only tools made for flaring cracks. HB Offset nuts are extremely useful in many of these placements, and cost far less than cams.
Long sling is a good idea. Opposed placements are a good idea. Flared cracks can be difficult to protect, and without the right tools can result in marginal placements even when using all the suggestions offered above. For me, marginal placements such as these get load-limiters such as screamers, even when opposition and long runners are used.
One last comment: good work on holding it together. Learn to distinguish between a 5.9 and a 5.6 by reading the rock, before you ever start to make your attempt. That skill is as valuable as being able to build a reliable system of protection.
and, oh yes... JERK those stoppers to set 'em. Jerk 'em HARD.
Brutus
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dirtineye
May 20, 2005, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Placing a cam with the lobes in a vertical alignment is not a good idea. Depending on two lobes of a cam to hold a fall is a bad idea. Weighting down the sling thinking that this will keep the piece in place is interesting, but I sure would not bet on that working. I've done it many times, and it works very well when tensioned opposition is not available. Brutus
Are you saying you have used all three of these methods or just the weighted sling idea? How many times have you fallen on gear held in by a weight on the sling?
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hangerlessbolt
May 20, 2005, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: YOu could also have tried to place another nut at a lower placement and slung the two nuts together under tension. That way the load bearing nut wouldn't move around and dislodge itself when you climbed above it.
^ yup
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dirtineye
May 20, 2005, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Are you saying you have used all three of these methods or just the weighted sling idea? How many times have you fallen on gear held in by a weight on the sling? i've never fallen on one, but i've had nuts stay in place and give me the confidence to send when i've weighted them in place. it works very very well for some situations. my favorite is to use my approach shoes to weight down the nut. i usually keep them on the back of my harness for the walk off, so if i get a nut in a bomber spot that upword pull could easily dislodge i'll clip my shoes to the nut, and then also clip a long sling to the nut. its a good easy way to get some extra security out of a nut, and it also suckers your second into bringing up your approach shoes for you. if i remeber correctly i think its even illistrated in the two most recent editions of FOTH. you should try it man. edit: i should also add, its a hell of allot easier to do than tensioned oposition, and doesn't consume usefull gear if you use something like your shoes.
It may be easier to do, but I still don't see any results listed of people falling on such placements. I have never had much trouble with tensioned opposition.
I'll agree that what you suggest, weighting the nut itself and having a seperate sling is better than weighting the sling, but still, two or three pounds is not enough insurance in my book. A little rope wiggle would easily move 2 or three pounds.
NO thanks, I won't be trying this bizzare idea.
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treehugger
May 20, 2005, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: NO thanks, I won't be trying this bizzare idea.
Some good info on this thread. I have to jump in on the comment above tho. Weighting a nut to hold it in place may not be foolproof, but it's far from bizarre. In any event, whether or not its a common technique has nothing to do with how effective it is.
Question to you: what is your concern with this setup holding a fall? I understand that the extra weight may not hold the nut in place, and that's part of the risk calculation. However, assuming it does, and that the nut is bomber for a downward pull, I don't see how an extra pound or pound.5 hanging off the nut is going to affect anything.
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dirtineye
May 20, 2005, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: NO thanks, I won't be trying this bizzare idea. Some good info on this thread. I have to jump in on the comment above tho. Weighting a nut to hold it in place may not be foolproof, but it's far from bizarre. In any event, whether or not its a common technique has nothing to do with how effective it is. Question to you: what is your concern with this setup holding a fall? I understand that the extra weight may not hold the nut in place, and that's part of the risk calculation. However, assuming it does, and that the nut is bomber for a downward pull, I don't see how an extra pound or pound.5 hanging off the nut is going to affect anything.
THe reason they want to hang a weight is to hold the nut in against an upward or outward pull, most likely from rope drag or wiggle. In other words, they are afraid that without something to hold the nut in place, it will fall out under very little urging. I just do not see how a small amount of weight can hold anything in place under any reasonable force. Consider how much 20 feet or rope weighs, and how far it can swing on a climb. Do you think a half pound is going to stop the piece from wiggling out? I don't. IT just gives a false sense of security. That's why I think it is a bizarre thing to do.
On the other hand, when I set a piece with tensioned opposition, I know it is not going anywhere. Of course a lot of people seem to think Tensioned opposition is bizarre
I agree with you, a small amount of weight is not going to make any difference. That's precisely my point.
Of course if the nut is bomber for a downard pull, and that is all it gets, then everything will be fine.
I have seen nuts lift out as people climbed past em, in a waeak moment I've even done it myself, and really, even 2 or 3 pounds would not have helped. These nuts were absolutely bomber for a downward pull though.
OK, consider this example:
our intrepid climber is out there, gets in a nut weighted in place with his half pound or pound item, and then he gets in another piece above. He falls, and the sling on the weighted in place piece comes under some tension. how much tension will it take to remove this nut? Not very much is my guess. Now maybe the top pice pulls, and we have something like the zipper effect in action. Tensioned opposition would stop this.
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hosh
May 20, 2005, 6:44 PM
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in the event of a fall, a nut that might not hold you is a better bet than nothing, which certainly will not hold you...
hosh.
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caughtinside
May 20, 2005, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: in the event of a fall, a nut that might not hold you is a better bet than nothing, which certainly will not hold you... hosh.
That's pretty simplistic. And doesn't seem to consider that where one person plugs a nut that might stay in and hold a fall, another person can with a bit of thinking and trickery can get a bomber piece.
Your post seems to suggest "oh well, it ain't great but it's better than nothing" which is a dangerous attitude.
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justanotherclimber
May 20, 2005, 7:09 PM
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In reply to: Your post seems to suggest "oh well, it ain't great but it's better than nothing" which is a dangerous attitude.
well, i tend to agree in a certain sense. if your choice is between nothing and something that might hold, then take what you can get. usually, though, a piece like that gets a screamer and a prayer and I immediately start looking for something better.
of course, trickery and skill play a large part, but alot of that comes from experience. so, sure, one person could get something bomber, but another could only get something mediocre in the same spot. in either case, its all they're going to get. so one guy moves on, somewhat confident, the other guy slaps a screamer on and moves on as well- albeit somewhat less confident.
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reynolcma
May 21, 2005, 2:52 AM
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In reply to: NO thanks, I won't be trying this bizzare idea.
Not a bizzare idea. Pretty well accepted actually. I think it might even be in freedom of the hills or some other such "climbing textbook." There are many tools in the arsenal. I don't think anyone's suggesting that this technique replace "tensioned opposition."
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dirtineye
May 21, 2005, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: NO thanks, I won't be trying this bizzare idea. Not a bizzare idea. Pretty well accepted actually. I think it might even be in freedom of the hills or some other such "climbing textbook." There are many tools in the arsenal. I don't think anyone's suggesting that this technique replace "tensioned opposition."
Look, why don;t you try some esperiments before you go with your book endorsed BIZARRE trick?
Not one person has claimed to have fallen on such a placement. If you want to debate the usefulness of weighted pieces staying in under rope drag or wiggle, then maybe you should have some experice with pulled placements and solid ones, hmmm?
Well accepted, gee, at one time it was well accepted that the earth was flat, that in climbing you had to have three points on all the time, and in computing that the country would need about three, total.
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