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euroford
May 21, 2005, 3:40 PM
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in trying to pick my idea rope system for some alpine rock climbing in RMNP next month, i'm starting to seriously lean toward getting a pair of super skinny twin ropes.
we will need two 60m ropes to rap our chosen routes, my orginal idea was to use our trusty 9.8mm single cord and pick up a beal 8mm trail line to save some weight. well, thats not very fair, i'd rather try to save some weight in both of our packs.
i've never messed with doubles before, and honestly, they sound like they have thier uses, but they also sound like a PITA. exspecially when we don't really need thier additional advantages and we want to put an emphasis on speed.
so, this led me to thinking of twins, slightly more complex to manage than a single, not nearly as difficult as a double, slightly safer than a single and the lightest 'per pack' weight of any system.
the only drawback i see is the durability which isn't a big issue. we live in chicago, so for our local cragging i just beat up on my 10.5 while saving the nicer ropes for the couple of bigger trips each year.
your thoughts? i'm leaning towards the bluewater ice floss as i'm a huge fan of bluewater ropes.
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reno
May 21, 2005, 5:22 PM
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Get doubles. You'll be glad you did. The learning curve isn't that steep, really.
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micronut
May 21, 2005, 5:56 PM
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you might consider a 100m or a 120m half rope for serious alpine. you can lead hard pitches doubled, do super long pitches on moderate ice and easy rock, and have no knot for catching on raps. Down side is one guy has to carry all the rope weight, and hauling complications. you can always carry a knife if, for some reason, you have to have to independant cords.
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dirtineye
May 21, 2005, 7:38 PM
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lok at the pmi verglass, 8.1 mm, rated twin or double. beware it is a little like climbing on rubber bands compared to fat singles, but the catch is great, the weight is low and they handle well.
I've caught a lot of falls on em, including some big-boy climber falls in twin mode.
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euroford
May 22, 2005, 4:18 AM
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hmmm... now that might be a really really good idea. who else makes a nice dual cert. twin/double rope? that pmi looks nice.
btw: but yikes, this is going to be a bit expensive..... :shock:
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fear
May 22, 2005, 4:53 AM
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Beal makes their Ice Lines (8.1) rated for double or twin. I use them as doubles on ice only but as twins they'd be safe on rock. I'm on my second set.
Mammut also makes some skinny 8.0's that are rated double and twin.
-Fear
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alpnclmbr1
May 22, 2005, 5:01 AM
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There are hardly any 60 meter raps in the park.
The main way to stay safe in the park is to climb fast.
For most parties, doubles slow you down on the way up (the more important more than half) and are a little faster on the way down.
Most raps are single pitch, often less then 50 meters. (50meter trail, 60 meter lead was my usual rig. I own dual cert 8.1's but rarely use them)
rack and trail rope versus lead rope and slings usually balances pretty close.
Bring one pack and don't leave anything at the base is a good plan on a lot of the routes.
I topped out on 90% of the climbs that i did in the park before noon.
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papounet
May 22, 2005, 8:41 AM
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In reply to: For most parties, doubles slow you down on the way up (the more important more than half) and are a little faster on the way down.
unless mistaken, doubles and half ropes are the same: they can/should be used either one per alternating protection point or together for some points. Half are not to be confused with twins, which must be used together at all time.
Could you expand to bit on that ? I would have thought that they were about similar because you always have the opportunities to fix both to a pro if the routes does not wander?
I would suggest going doubles rather than twins because it gives you more options (such as reducing drag by clipping one strand to one set of pro and the other strand to the other pro).
Because of this advantage, you will find that less ans less twins ropes are produced.
the Beal joker is triply certified, for single, double and twin usage.
it may be a bit too elastic for single usage, and a bit heavy for double usage, but you may want to look into this rope.
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papounet
May 22, 2005, 9:07 AM
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going doubles over a combo single+trail line could be dictated by the syle of climbing and you own attitude. I first read about this combo technique in a book "climbing light, high and fast" by martin twight. I stongly suggest you read his discussions and which routes he climbed whith each system.
I have applied the combo technique to climbing in the alps for some routes, mostly where the amount of rappel were low, but I am more confortable with doubles.
My interpreation is: (i.e. not Martin's)
Pro of combo:
faster to climb up,
the second rope is only used when necessary (less wear, less rope management)
trail line can be used for hauling, or ascending
Pro of double:
(probably best used as 2x50 yhan 1x100 for glacier travel)
safest to climb (less probability of rope cut)
safer to climb in dubious pro because of lower fall force
Pro of twin:
15% less weight than double
(but when I see how much icelines are trashed by rockclimbing, I prefer the sturdier ropes)
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slackwareuser
May 22, 2005, 3:59 PM
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papounet:
In reply to: unless mistaken, doubles and half ropes are the same: they can/should be used either one per alternating protection point or together for some points.
You're just a tiny bit mistaken, but that could cause serious trouble. You can clip half ropes EITHER to alternating points OR to the same pieces. If you do both within the same pitch, the two ropes will melt each other if you fall. (This has been demonstrated in tests). If you have to clip both ropes to the same piece, use a separate biner for each rope.
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powen
May 22, 2005, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: I first read about this combo technique in a book "climbing light, high and fast" by martin twight.
FWIW - I think you are referencing "Extreme Alpinism - Climbing Light, Fast and High "by Mark Twight...
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wedgy
May 22, 2005, 5:37 PM
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PROS of 2 ropes; backup lead line if one is damaged, soft catch, easy on pro, low rope drag(alternate pro), long raps IF not on fixed stations, etc. CONS; longer falls, increased rope management(at 1st), the skinny ropes tangle like no other: ie they won't feed out of a pile like a 10mm+ rope would, knots tie tighter & are hard to untie w/ gloves on, they rap FAST, they get stuck easier than a thicker rope in alpine/sierra rock & w/ a 60m rap you stand a good chance of that happening. I use twins/doubles on ice routes & single 60m x 10~10.2mm lead w/ a 7mm x 60m in the pack if i think there will be long raps(stations aren't fixed). keep in mind 'fixed' stations are often not there.
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papounet
May 22, 2005, 7:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I first read about this combo technique in a book "climbing light, high and fast" by martin twight. FWIW - I think you are referencing "Extreme Alpinism - Climbing Light, Fast and High "by Mark Twight...
indeed, thanks.
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yannbuse
May 23, 2005, 5:36 AM
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I love the doubles system and yet sometimes i find it disadvantageous. Thankfully "wedgy" conveys alot of my thoughts of doubles vs singles. In addtition, i have a couple of my own observations.
My first observation is totally subjective, therefore may only be subject to my onw personal experience... regardless of brand ive always had an issue with kink in ropes of greater than 10mm, less than 10mm ive experienced less kink. I mean >10mm has caused some really hainus kink for me, but when i started climbin on skinnier ropes, sure the occasional kink was there but generally pretty smooth.
An observation i would differ on that of wedgy's is that on doubles i haven't really experienced the longer falls compared to singles, however when i have fell on doubles I get my center of gravity slightly shifted due to the a pull of the tensioning of the other rope (considering where your last couple pieces of pro were placed).
Oh! and another thing, that has screwed me over. In alpine ive had some bad times when weather moved in while rappeling and have had ropes get frozen onto either the rap station/rings, rock or ice. My thicker ropes didnt have as much of the same problem. A real pain in the ass is when your on your way down and you v'e got to prussik your way back up to free it then make sure it is in motion while rapplleing down, etc...
where's that 12 year...
yann
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tradklime
May 23, 2005, 3:04 PM
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I love climbing with twins. My set (beal ice twin- 7.7mm) is of similar weight and bulk as one 10mm single. Climbing, clipping, and belaying is almost as simple as a single. I like having two ropes for constructing belay anchors and, of course, having two ropes for raps (even if you don't plan on it) is nice.
I used to be an exclusive double rope user, but I found the additional weight was not worth it. I did not benefit from alternate clipping enough to make it worth while. Also, despite what many will say, if you are really pushing your limits, rope management (clipping etc.) can be a pain.
The down side with climbing with 2 ropes is that you are dealing with a lot of rope at the belay. Twins are slightly better than doubles, since you manage, stack, feed them as one rope. Skinny ropes do get tangled easier than thicker, and you will need to pay extra attention at the belays.
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takeme
May 23, 2005, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: hmmm... now that might be a really really good idea. who else makes a nice dual cert. twin/double rope? that pmi looks nice. btw: but yikes, this is going to be a bit expensive..... :shock:
I think the double cert ropes are the way to go. Personally, I have a set of 8.1 doubles and love them for anything where I think the chances that I'm going to fall are low, eg most alpine rock that I do. I didn't find the learning curve to be steep at all. Doubles can often help on wandering alpine pitches but if you're doing mostly classic trade routes in the Park that won't be much of an issue.
That said, I've done lots of alpine routes in the Park and as someone pointed out, there are virtually no routes where you really need two ropes to get off. I like having the doubles more for insurance if I'm high on a route and something goes seriously wrong. This saved my ass on an obscure route in the Wind Rivers once.
Also, most of the approaches in the Park are fairly short so weight isn't much of a consideration; for that reason a single cord+ tag line makes sense too in many situations. For longer approaches that involve bivying though (eg the Winds, and a few in the Park), I really like the weight-saving aspect of the doubles.
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euroford
May 23, 2005, 3:54 PM
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thanks for all of the information guys, and please keep it comming as the varied experience is certainly helpfull to me and likely to the lurkers as well.
now you having me leaning back towards using my trusty 9.8 single and getting a tag line. i was thinking about getting beal's 8mm static tag line. which would be a good investment as i will likely do some hauling in the future as well. i'm certainly not decided yet however, a set of doubles is sounding more appealing every day, as a side note i also do some ice climbing and we are looking at doing some alpine mixed rock/ice stuff in the near future. so really, i'll end up with both the tag line and some doubles eventually anyways, its just what should i buy now :D
also for the record, this years plans are the sharkstooth NE ridge and petit grepon south face. so i know we'll have double rope raps, and these also appear to be rather straight up pitches without to much wandering.
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jsj42
May 23, 2005, 4:44 PM
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I've done quite a bit of climbing on Mammut Phoenix 8 mm's. While technically double ropes, I often use them as twins as well. I've taken significant falls both ways, without problems. They've worked great for me on desert towers and especially in RMNP. However, they are delicate ropes and they show wear much quicker than a single. About a year ago I was rapping the Diamond and rockfall cut straight to the core on one of them. Since then I bought a 60m length of 7mm tech cord to use as a trail line/rap line with a single rope. I must admit that I absolutely love this system and use it exclusively for climbs that require two ropes to descend - the security and ease of a single rope, and the static line is almost weightless and great for occasional hauling. Altogether the system is barely a pound heavier than my doubles - which now sit around unused a lot except for the rare climb that has many wandering pitches, double rope raps, and can truly benefit from double rope technique.
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mtnjunkie
May 23, 2005, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: also for the record, this years plans are the sharkstooth NE ridge and petit grepon south face. so i know we'll have double rope raps, and these also appear to be rather straight up pitches without to much wandering. |
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holmeslovesguinness
May 23, 2005, 5:21 PM
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If you haven't used a two rope setup before I think that trying to learn on longer routes might be a bad idea - they definitely take a little getting used to and would probably slow you down a bit initially, and for the routes you have in mind you can certainly get by with just a single lead line.
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euroford
May 24, 2005, 4:34 PM
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well, i think i've came full circle back to a fat single and a tag line :)
so what do you guys suggest as the best tag/rap line?
would something like this get the job done?
7mm utility cord
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davidji
May 24, 2005, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: You're just a tiny bit mistaken, but that could cause serious trouble. You can clip half ropes EITHER to alternating points OR to the same pieces. If you do both within the same pitch, the two ropes will melt each other if you fall. (This has been demonstrated in tests). If you have to clip both ropes to the same piece, use a separate biner for each rope.
The alternating part is a simplification. If you were doing a straight up climb, alternating is best. On a wandering climb, you'll often clip one rope left, and one right. On a traverse-then-up, you'll often clip one rope across the traverse for the leader, and not clip the other until high above for a high pendulum point for the second. Used appropriately (done right, and in the right place) this will protect the second better than placing extra pro along the traverse with a single (assuming such pro exists).
As for single vs double, note that sometimes there is no pro on a traverse (e.g. moving from crack to crack across blank terrain). The tendancy is to put pro in as soon as you get it (when you reach the second crack). With a single, this leaves the second poorly protected. With doubles, simply wait to clip the other rope until you're quite a bit higher, and the second is properly protected.
While there are several benefits to doubles there are extra risks too. For example, if you sever one, the other should catch you. But if you've clipped one 3 times in a row due to route wandering, you could be dependent on that one rope. You can't take a factor 2 fall on it, but you could sever it.
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papounet
Jun 8, 2005, 1:03 AM
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In reply to: papounet: In reply to: unless mistaken, doubles and half ropes are the same: they can/should be used either one per alternating protection point or together for some points. You're just a tiny bit mistaken, but that could cause serious trouble. You can clip half ropes EITHER to alternating points OR to the same pieces. If you do both within the same pitch, the two ropes will melt each other if you fall. (This has been demonstrated in tests). If you have to clip both ropes to the same piece, use a separate biner for each rope.
Dear,
I was not aware this has been demonstrated, nor that an acident has been found linked to this practice. the only accident I am aware which involves rope melting because of friction is Dano's fatal jump.
Can you point me toward some information, please ???
thanks
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slobmonster
Jun 8, 2005, 3:15 AM
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Courtesy climbingboulder.com, the anchor atop Sharkstooth:
http://images.climbingboulder.com/album/sized/2809.jpg
I'd bring a nice black cordelette and a knife. If you get my drift...
Regarding usage of double/half ropes vs. twins:
Double/Half ropes, clip alternately; Twins, clip together.
But sometimes you have to improvise. *It happens.*
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