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edge
May 27, 2005, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: But what you seem to be saying is that you'll only get angry/physical with someone who chops bolts on routes on which you don't agree. That's what I don't understand.
So I guess I should get angry at people I agree with? WTF?
Basically, I am using my experience to evaluate where I think fixed gear should be located. I am old enough to know better, but young enough to know the difference. Like I said earlier, I will not agree with everyone 100%, nor do I expect to. I just am voicing my concerns, on this pathetic little thread, on the website where no one cares. However, when my actions go public, I will take full credit for them via all possible means.
I will PM you with the name of the fellow who I think chopped Thin Air. Like I said, good job on him; I agree with those actions; just me, those are my thoughts and reflections! If you know him to also be the person who left a fixed keg on Cannon, then I will believe you unless proven otherwise. That was bullshit and I will think considerably less of the person if that is true.!
As for the other missing pins/etc I have no problem calling out Mark Clark as the culprit. I know the guy, and he has put himself in this position. Like our dear Mr. Nichols, Mr. Clark has also elected to play possum and not respond to our little electronic war. Maybe, he is smarter than all of us????
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shakylegs
May 27, 2005, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: But what you seem to be saying is that you'll only get angry/physical with someone who chops bolts on routes on which you don't agree. That's what I don't understand. So I guess I should get angry at people I agree with? WTF?
So that makes you the arbiter of which routes should be chopped? See, this is where the problem arises.
There's an old pin on Across the Universe, at the crux on the .10 pitch. It doesn't need to be there. Can I chop it? However, the 3rd and 4th pitches are completely X, with perhaps one placement in 190 feet. Can I bolt it? Or are they left untouched because those pitches are only ~5.4?
You see, it's that slippery slope.
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pheenixx
May 27, 2005, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: ...I just am voicing my concerns, on this pathetic little thread, on the website where no one cares....
...i care.. :shock: :)
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edge
May 27, 2005, 5:40 PM
Post #129 of 154
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: But what you seem to be saying is that you'll only get angry/physical with someone who chops bolts on routes on which you don't agree. That's what I don't understand. So I guess I should get angry at people I agree with? WTF? So that makes you the arbiter of which routes should be chopped? See, this is where the problem arises. There's an old pin on Across the Universe, at the crux on the .10 pitch. It doesn't need to be there. Can I chop it? However, the 3rd and 4th pitches are completely X, with perhaps one placement in 190 feet. Can I bolt it? Or are they left untouched because those pitches are only ~5.4? You see, it's that slippery slope.
See, being older than dirt and all, I will share this little tid-bit.
Mike Cody was a good friend and climbing partner of mine. He was involved in the FA of "Across the Universe." I also knew Todd Swain quite well, who was also involved in the route's FA. As I recall, I couldn't get Mike to shut up about the line until I actually went and climbed it myself.
If these guys were to go back and fugg with the fixxed pro, that would be fine with me, provided that they don't bolt it into submission and ruin the integrity of the climb. If they were to avoid and eliminate any of it while climbing the route, then I would be most impressed. The route was their creation, follows a distinct (albeit contrived) line, and fixed gear was added basically to prevent death falls.
The one and only route that I chopped was rap bolted to basically become a sport climb on a cliff with a long standing ethic against that sort of thing. My cohorts were all much more established and well respected in the local climbing community than I.
It is true, that some routes have had a different standard applied to them than others. "Ego Trip" is a joke, for example, and yet it does have valid climbing. I am much more impressed with Niland's ascent of "No Birches" than anything on "Ego Trip". If I was still climbing at Cathedral when Brad, another old friend and partner of mine, bolted that route, I probably would have axed that as well.
No one complains at Rumney about rap bolting. Cathedral, for the most part, is against it. I am not in charge, and do not claim to be, and yet I feel a responsibility to maintain the ethics of that place. I will not please 100% of the climbers 100% of the time. C'est la vie.
However, and this is the part that is relevent to this thread, If I bolt or chop something, I will always be honest and forthcoming about it, it will always be with the best interests of the cliff and community in mind, and you will know how to reach me to discuss my actions. Mr Nichols believes himself above other's scrutiny; I do not.
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shakylegs
May 27, 2005, 5:47 PM
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A most excellent reply, especially your last paragraph. And no, I would never touch AtU. I was using it as an example.
However, you do have my sympathies for knowing Todd Swain.
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ambler
May 27, 2005, 5:55 PM
Post #131 of 154
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In reply to: Thin Air bolts being chopped, yup, agreed with the act also. They were completely unnecessary. However, it had been agreed that they would stay.
"It is the consensus of this group that an established route's original character and integrity be maintained."
Now, that principle could reasonably (though not unanimously) be understood as opposing the retro bolts that had been placed for guided parties' convenience on Thin Air.
In reply to: But, since nothing came of that, some other kid decided that it was okay to pull some pitons off other climbs, i.e. Funhouse. A bunch of posturing, nothing occurs. Seems the precedent has been set.
In reply to: How this all pertains to Ken Nichols, I have no idea, I may just be talking outta my lily-white ass.
Some of my old routes have been retrobolted for the convenience of guided parties. Others reportedly have fixed crud such as stuck Aliens at the crux. I would not be sad if such fixtures were cleanly removed. At the same time, I've given blanket permission for competent parties to replace my own cruddy old FA bolts or fixed pins with safer new bolts on a one-for-one basis. There's no contradiction between these two views. The ethics of placing or removing bolts depend so much on situation. The Nichols situation is way out of bounds.
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the_pirate
May 27, 2005, 5:57 PM
Post #132 of 154
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Good posts Loran. :righton:
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slobmonster
May 27, 2005, 5:59 PM
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Hi fellows... most notably Edge & Shakylegs. As I am in California now, my "North Conway local" status might have waned, but I was living in town, and guiding every day, during the activities and arguments you both allude to. If, for any reason, y'all need some clarification (or even just another voice) please let me know. I've spent far too much time typing out my thoughts on NEClimbs.com to repeat them here.
I do find it amusing, if not ironic, that my good friend (cum Thin Air bolt chopper, Moby Grape keg accomplice, etc) is shown of the cover of this spring's Black Diamond, clipped to a bolt.
Any news regarding Funhouse pitons? I was always of the mind that they should be in good shape, i.e. not absent, but if they disappeared forever I guess I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Cheers!
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vivalargo
May 27, 2005, 6:20 PM
Post #134 of 154
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What a mess . . .
Trying to impose you're sandards on others usually causes problems; likewise, climbing with no standards at all.
JL
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landgolier
May 27, 2005, 6:21 PM
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I'm glad there's some sanity going on here, and that there are some voices talking about how bolting is dumb some places and brilliant in others, and the distinction is about more than just local whim. Rumney is kind of my alma mater, and I agree, it would be a pretty useless spot with a couple greasy schist cracks were it not for bolting. I don't know which routes were bolted on rap and which on lead, though to me it doesn't make all that much difference as I think 90% of the routes I've been on there were bolted intelligently. Maybe I'll learn to be a purist one day, but right now my attitude is that for a sport crag I don't care if you bolted it by hand on lead with one foot smeared, the other on a micro nub, and a yellow trickle running down your leg, or if you did it on rap with a rescue rack descender, a bulldog, half a pack of smokes, and your buddies tossing up cold ones, just know the route, and bolt it so the line and the clipping stances make sense. I maybe wouldn't support this logic so much for mixed routes, but having gotten my wings at rumney and then moved to the DC area where there is almost no sport climbing and everyone topropes, I'm glad that my first exposure to climbing was sport leading. There are so many people here who have never done anything but toprope, who are solid up to 5.9 and who by all accounts should be spending off days cruising up multipitch trad 5.4 gearfests, but who are so scared to lead that they won't even climb 5 feet past a toprope anchor to top out. Granted I also turned some heads when I first got here with conversations like "So how hard do you climb?" "well, I sport lead to about 5.8, I've done one or two 5.9's." "Cool, we should climb some time." "Yeah, I'd love to see some of the stuff around here and get a lesson in toprope anchors." "WHAT? You're telling me you lead 5.8 and you don't know how to set up anchors." "Umm. Yeah. Why?"
-T
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shakylegs
May 27, 2005, 6:23 PM
Post #136 of 154
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In reply to: In reply to: Thin Air bolts being chopped, yup, agreed with the act also. They were completely unnecessary. However, it had been agreed that they would stay. Where was that agreed? Our recollections of that North Conway meeting seem to differ. A variety of opinions were expressed, but the hundred-odd climbers present reached unanimous agreement on this statement of principle: "It is the consensus of this group that an established route's original character and integrity be maintained." Now, that principle could reasonably (though not unanimously) be understood as opposing the retro bolts that had been placed for guided parties' convenience on Thin Air. What's your evidence that the fixed-piton thief acted because "nothing came of" the Thin Air bolt chopping? There was a lot of criticism following the Thin Air incident, but no one got beaten up -- do you think that lack of violence ("posturing, nothing occurs") emboldened the furtive piton thief? I can see how, to some climbing consumers, the consequences might seem similar -- fixed pro you'd like to clip is no longer there. But in terms of aesthetic impacts and motivations, the actions seem miles apart. I mean this nicely, but...yes. Comparing Ken Nichols' vandalism to the Thin Air incident is like comparing a gypsy moth infestation to George Washington's cherry tree. Other well-informed posts in this thread explain why.
Um, no need to be getting into my grill about it, I was asking, is all.
And I'm not going to try to debate with a prof, I'll have my ass handed to me. Tenderised, no less.
However, regarding the piton thief, to me it's a bit like seeing someone do 80 in a 60 zone. The other guy got away with it, so why not me? Hell, the other guy even got a guiding license out of it.
"Comparing Ken Nichols' vandalism to the Thin Air incident is like comparing a gypsy moth infestation to George Washington's cherry tree."
Kinda true: one is a cyclical entomological occurrence, and the other is a piece of historical fiction where the protagonist becomes a national hero. On the cover of a BD mag (according to slob), and even getting his name in a yuppified outside (ahem) magazine. So, okay, the analogy works for me.
And I don't think anyone here is really defending Ken Nichols. So don't assume that I am. I just don't see why it's seemingly okay to get physical on Nichols' ass and not others.
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styndall
May 27, 2005, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: By the same token, those of you chopping bolts that are meant to preserve trees will one day regret your actions. Too soon, I am afraid.
This is a thing I want to emphasize. I don't know any specifics about the chopping or bolting in the Northeast, and down here in Georgia, I've never heard of a bolting war, but bolts to protect trees are critical. At Lost Wall, especially, some of the popular routes near the parking area have nearly killed all the trees atop the cliff. Above the Guzzler, especially, the trees look flimsy and long-abused. There's a BLM (I think) requirement that any new bolts need government permission. If I weren't such a gumby and knew how to do it well, I'd go ask for permission myself.
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d.ben
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May 27, 2005, 7:11 PM
Post #138 of 154
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still nobody has, or wants to share a picture of Nichols? Doesn't someone know someone who works in Auto insurance? that's one way to get a pic.
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johnpeterson
May 28, 2005, 4:00 AM
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Some people don't really get the point here. We have a person in CT who has delusions of grandure and thinks he can do whatever he wants because he's defending some sort of climbing tradition. But in actual fact, he's just a disturbed individual who plays no constructive role in the climbing scene and doesn't speak for anyone but himself and a small handful of followers. Threads like this are just what he's after - attention. Can he yet again cause mass hysteria in the climbing community? Can he get more publicity? Will he get some press in the climbing mags? Will he be mentioned in letters to the editor? Can he get his picture on a T-shirt again? Can he be the center of attention?
What can we do? Ignore him. Put the bolts back. Work out bolting policies with land managers that forbid vigilante actions. Call the cops if you catch him doing something illegal. Ban him from private property. But don't give him the attention he craves. Don't threaten him. Don't slash his tires. Don't present him as a spokesman or a representitive of a popular point of view. Just make sure he realizes that he's irrelevant. That he's not worth debating or listening to. That he's just a vandal, crying for recognition.
A healthy debate about bolting is fine. But it's no use debating someone who won't listen to anyone else and does nothing of value for the climbing community.
John
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rossgoddard
May 28, 2005, 4:12 AM
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slob, ambler and edge-
is there a reason ya'll arent saying the names of the thin air chopper, and the facilitator/accomplice of the swamp donkey disco (cannon party)?
i know the names, and personally know one of the guys, and think its a reasonable thing for the community to know their names
i am far from a locan in N. conway, so maybe slob can fill me in
-H
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quietmonk
May 28, 2005, 4:47 AM
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I chopped my first bolts almost two decades ago. Upon realizing that climbing means different things to us all, I now tolerate seeing bolted climbs as long as they don't violate the purity of an original line. There also is no way I would let bolts shine on a gear-protectable pitch.
Based on my eperiences Ken, he is doing nothing beneficial for climbing.
It would be a perfect world if we could take the advice of our Mothers who always told us to "talk things over" with the class bully and "try to be his friend." Perhaps we should turn to our Fathers who told us to "punch his lights out."
As unfortunate as it is, Ken is the bully who will only learn through renforcement.
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healyje
May 28, 2005, 6:19 AM
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In reply to: We have a person in CT who has delusions of grandure and thinks he can do whatever he wants because he's defending some sort of climbing tradition. .... John
Not to be a drag, but while the first phrase in this sentence may have some validity; the second phrase, and specifically "some sort of climbing tradition", is incredibly dismissive of the issues at the root of these sorts of problems and a poor choice of words for someone I suspect is capable of choosing their words better...
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brokenarmboy19
May 28, 2005, 8:35 AM
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ok my dumb assed post of the day
no thread would be complete without it
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johnpeterson
May 28, 2005, 10:23 AM
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In reply to: specifically " some sort of climbing tradition", is incredibly dismissive of the issues at the root of these sorts of problems and a poor choice of words
I'm not dismissing or minimizing the issue at all. I'm just pointing out that this particular person would like you to think that his actions serve some noble purpose and represent the opinion of many climbers. But in actual fact, if you know the real story about what is happening out here his actions (when you consider all of them) represent only one thing: a spoiled kid who wants everyone else to do everything his way. There's a lot more to the story than this one incident. But in the end it comes down to a quest for control and recognition, not an ethical debate at all.
Like I said, a bolting debate is fine. But don't waste time debating with or about someone who doesn't listen.
John
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napoleon_in_rags
May 28, 2005, 11:17 AM
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In reply to: Why do I get this image of a posse from Blazing Saddles? This ought to be good for another 10 pages of innuendo and s---. Ken Nichols' car... lol! The way you worded it, you guys did the lynching, er, chopping. DMT
Whooow. You mus be Psychic.... Yessir, Yessir 10 pages full!!!!
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cl142
May 29, 2005, 2:20 AM
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damn sport climbers, always whinning, straighten it hard-man style
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jstan
May 30, 2005, 5:35 AM
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I have read many of the forgoing posts in hopes of grasping them overall. I seem to be left with two questions:
One:
How do we decide which people have the qualifications necessary to permit them to
Place safe and effective bolts
Remove bolts
This thread and countless others show pandora’s box comes into play whenever any person self qualifies . Mind you they may very well be qualified. But can people qualify themselves?
Two:
I am only vaguely familiar with the procedures put in place by climbers at Eldorado Springs, the NPS in JT and I believe more generally by the Forest Service.
These policies seem to address some of the core issues being debated in this thread. I would benefit from a discussion here of these approaches to the problem.
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slobmonster
Jun 2, 2005, 6:19 PM
Post #148 of 154
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In reply to: slob, ambler and edge- is there a reason ya'll arent saying the names of the thin air chopper, and the facilitator/accomplice of the swamp donkey disco (cannon party)? i know the names, and personally know one of the guys, and think its a reasonable thing for the community to know their names i am far from a locan in N. conway, so maybe slob can fill me in -H
I'm friends with most of the young men and women involved in the north country shenanigans to which you refer. They have all each identified themselves on neclimbs.com, over a year ago (?), and therein discussed (however briefly) what goes on, and why.
As they are my friends, I'm not going to indemnify them here; even though we have disagreements (regarding Thin Air, most prominently), we are friends first and foremost. Also, since we all know each other, we have little need for dragging each other through the detritus that makes up the Internet.
Weren't we talking about Ken, though? Anything happen in the last few weeks?
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asandh
Jun 2, 2005, 6:43 PM
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:)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 2, 2005, 10:18 PM
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Loser :roll: look at the pictures? what is so sacred about smashing the heck out of anchors that are placed to help protect the enviornment :roll:
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