|
raelity
May 30, 2005, 2:10 AM
Post #1 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2005
Posts: 10
|
where does everyone clip their biner when belaying/attaching ATC?
Because I was taught to go through the main front loop and thats what I see a lot of people doing but I guess some people go through the other two loops that you tie into is one way better?
|
|
|
|
|
graceclimb
May 30, 2005, 2:14 AM
Post #2 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2005
Posts: 2
|
Clipping your ATC into the loops you tie into not only directs the forces so as to be very uncomfortable for you, but also changes the direction of the ATC so that to brake you have to pull sideways rather than down, which goes against gravity and is less easy in a stressful situation. The belay loop (on most harnesses) is the single strongest piece, and I've always heard it strongly recommended that you clip into it.
|
|
|
|
|
okclimbermatt
May 30, 2005, 2:17 AM
Post #3 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2004
Posts: 52
|
Yes, use the belay loop. Thats why its there.
|
|
|
|
|
raelity
May 30, 2005, 2:18 AM
Post #4 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2005
Posts: 10
|
So my locking gate should be on the left or right ? not the front or back?
|
|
|
|
|
raelity
May 30, 2005, 2:23 AM
Post #5 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2005
Posts: 10
|
BTW I'am really sorry for asking such a redundant question I should have checked the forum first. I'm apologizing now so hopefully no one will "yell" at me
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
May 30, 2005, 2:31 AM
Post #6 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
don't be sorry for asking that question, yeah it was redundant, but a good thing you asked. I know that it is much more comfortable and easier to belay of the belay loop. it is called that for a reason. it orients the device correctly and also is the strongest piece. someone also has said something about going through the tie-in points tri-loads the carabiner, makes sense to me so that's just one more reason not to belay off of it. yes, your carabiner gate should be facing left or right, not front or back.
if you join this site expecting to never be "yelled" at you better stop coming haha. it'll happen, not everyone here agrees, and sooner or later you're going to upset someone, just dont' worry about it. it's the internet, not life!
|
|
|
|
|
charley
May 30, 2005, 12:40 PM
Post #7 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 6627
|
Like many things in climbing it is preference not right or wrong. Just so it's safe. I'm sure you will see argumants for both ways and prolly for which way the gate should face, neither are as important as " don't take the brake hand off the rope".
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Jun 1, 2005, 1:26 PM
Post #8 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: Clipping your ATC into the loops you tie into not only directs the forces so as to be very uncomfortable for you, but also changes the direction of the ATC so that to brake you have to pull sideways rather than down, which goes against gravity and is less easy in a stressful situation. The belay loop (on most harnesses) is the single strongest piece, and I've always heard it strongly recommended that you clip into it.
Sorry, but this is wrong. Belay loops haven't been around for that long. Before they were added, Your only choice was to go through the waist and leg loops. Harnesses as a whole were redesigned. Because of this it brought on other considerations. IMO, the main reason that you belay through the loop (according to manufacturers recommendations) is that the other way puts the biner in a perfect position for the rope to unscrew your biner, causing it to become unlocked. Experiment with this and you will see.
|
|
|
|
|
diabolix
Jun 1, 2005, 2:10 PM
Post #9 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2005
Posts: 31
|
I've always been told and have read that the belay loop is for belaying, not for tying in. The tie in points are for tying in, not belaying. tri-loading the carabiner is a reason why not to belay from the tie-in, but i can't see why one shouldn't or wouldn't tie in on the belay loop, two points of contact?? does the weight transfer ration or whatever shock-load the belay loop??
And before belay loops, they used two opposed carabiners on the tie-in points as a belay "loop". My dad still uses the swiss seat and belays this way. In case you guys don't know (sorry if you do) take a bight of webbing hold it in front of your balls, put the tails between your legs, wrap around front, then through the bight, pull out to the sides and start tying everything left around your waist like crazy. the tie-in is the bight and waistbelt. Im not sure which knot my dad uses but its never come loose and its held my falls in a gym plenty of times. But unless your an old stickler who used to jump out of helicopters for the cops, buy a real harness and dont scare your partners half to death. good for emergencies though, I always carry extra webbing.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jun 1, 2005, 5:16 PM
Post #10 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: I've always been told and have read that the belay loop is for belaying, not for tying in. The tie in points are for tying in, not belaying. tri-loading the carabiner is a reason why not to belay from the tie-in, but i can't see why one shouldn't or wouldn't tie in on the belay loop, two points of contact?? does the weight transfer ration or whatever shock-load the belay loop??
Take a look at your harness, and you'll see that the tie-in points are reinforced with extra layers. This is because the friction of the rope against the harness (nylon on nylon) is substantial. While the belay loop is probably the strongest part of your harness, it is not the most abrasion resistant.
The belay biner will put a lot of force on the harness, but doesn't cause (much) abrasion, so it can go through the belay loop. But the rope will put a lot of force on the harness, and also causes a lot of abrasion. So to prolong the life of your harness, the rope needs to go through the two tie-in points.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
diabolix
Jun 1, 2005, 5:39 PM
Post #11 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2005
Posts: 31
|
In reply to: In reply to: I've always been told and have read that the belay loop is for belaying, not for tying in. The tie in points are for tying in, not belaying. tri-loading the carabiner is a reason why not to belay from the tie-in, but i can't see why one shouldn't or wouldn't tie in on the belay loop, two points of contact?? does the weight transfer ration or whatever shock-load the belay loop?? Take a look at your harness, and you'll see that the tie-in points are reinforced with extra layers. This is because the friction of the rope against the harness (nylon on nylon) is substantial. While the belay loop is probably the strongest part of your harness, it is not the most abrasion resistant. The belay biner will put a lot of force on the harness, but doesn't cause (much) abrasion, so it can go through the belay loop. But the rope will put a lot of force on the harness, and also causes a lot of abrasion. So to prolong the life of your harness, the rope needs to go through the two tie-in points. GO
Perfect explanation. thanks. I guess that'll prolong the life of your rope too.(at least the end for tying in). Everyday I learn a new good reason for not doing something stoopid.
And blueeyedclimber, Im sure you mean like pre-everest "back in the day" for belaying at the tie in points. I know biners have been around longer than belay loops, and even if that was "the" choice, it wasn't the "only" choice. Only reason I mentioned it. As cracklover says, the nylon on nylon would destroy everything quickly, they must have known that back then and looked for a better way to make their equipment last. I really am not implying I know better.
Petzl still reccomends using opposed gate biners for tying in and belaying(along with normal methods), its in the book that came with my harness. But Im just a new climber with a reading addiction. I dont pretend to really know anything from experience, just research when Im inside dreaming about outside. If Im wrong Im wrong.
Peace
|
|
|
|
|
graceclimb
Jun 1, 2005, 5:49 PM
Post #12 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2005
Posts: 2
|
In reply to: Clipping your ATC into the IMO, the main reason that you belay through the loop (according to manufacturers recommendations) is that the other way puts the biner in a perfect position for the rope to unscrew your biner, causing it to become unlocked.
Hm...well I know that my way of saying it may not have been complete or the most articulate, but I just looked this up in several places, and I do believe that the "main reason" you belay through the belay loop is because it is, according to the manufacturers, the strongest piece. This also prevents possible cross-loading. Many locking biners nowadays require more than just being unscrewed anyways, although that is an interesting point.
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Jun 2, 2005, 12:35 PM
Post #13 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: In reply to: Clipping your ATC into the IMO, the main reason that you belay through the loop (according to manufacturers recommendations) is that the other way puts the biner in a perfect position for the rope to unscrew your biner, causing it to become unlocked. Hm...well I know that my way of saying it may not have been complete or the most articulate, but I just looked this up in several places, and I do believe that the "main reason" you belay through the belay loop is because it is, according to the manufacturers, the strongest piece. This also prevents possible cross-loading. Many locking biners nowadays require more than just being unscrewed anyways, although that is an interesting point.
The belay loop may be the strongest piece, but that is not really a consideration. The falling on your tie-in points, I would think, would put more force on the harness than catching a fall with the belay loop. The tie-in points are plenty strong enough to belay off off. It's the orientation of the biner that is the consideration.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Jun 2, 2005, 12:42 PM
Post #14 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
deleted....double post.
These bugs are really starting to annoy me. But then again, it is a free website, so I guess I can't complain.
|
|
|
|
|
mgoodro
Jun 3, 2005, 10:21 PM
Post #15 of 15
(2680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2004
Posts: 119
|
Yes, the belay loop is designed for that purpose. Having used older harnesses I can vouch for the comfort factor as well.
As for the direction of gate on the biner, with a belay loop it seems less likely that the rope will pass over the gate. It is rare, but possible, for the rope to cause a quicklock biner to open. This can be avoided by having the gate face away from the side with your brake hand (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). The surest solution is to use a screwlock biner.
|
|
|
|
|
|
