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How Stuff Works- A deadly mistake?
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pipsqueekspire


Jun 1, 2005, 10:04 PM
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How Stuff Works- A deadly mistake?
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OK- So I was a little bored tonight trying to study for exams and found this website and link

http://health.howstuffworks.com/rock-climbing3.htm
Can you find the deadly mistake(s) on this page? It is always good to know that qualified professionals make websites like this. Makes me wonder what else I should not believe on the internet.


-pip


jeep4evr


Jun 1, 2005, 10:37 PM
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Are you talking about the ATC with 2 carabiners attached? Other than that... dude's harness looks uncomfortably tight on him.


kobaz


Jun 1, 2005, 11:13 PM
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The dude's not double backed.


blondgecko
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Jun 2, 2005, 12:13 AM
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The waist loop on the harness is on upside down. Not deadly, but funny!

:lol:


curt


Jun 2, 2005, 12:19 AM
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Some idiot was shown there bouldering with a helmet on. :wink:

Curt


zylah


Jun 2, 2005, 12:49 AM
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the belayer grabs the rope after the climber has fallen, :( at least thats how i interpreted it


kachoong


Jun 2, 2005, 1:54 AM
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"On extremely difficult routes, finding enough things to hold onto in a continuous sequence becomes a complex geometry problem."

....I wish I had listened to my Math teacher.... :?


gasdr


Jun 2, 2005, 3:22 AM
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Probably not the best idea == "carabiners for attaching the harness to the rope"


keinangst


Jun 2, 2005, 6:09 AM
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They are going sport climbing in Boreals.

There oughta be a warning or something... :wink:


pipsqueekspire


Jun 2, 2005, 7:02 AM
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Only one guy saw it.... ?? His harness is not doubled back at the waist or the left leg!!!!

I dont know if this was a troll.... just a fyi.

-pip


reunionron


Jun 2, 2005, 7:27 AM
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In reply to:
OK- So I was a little bored tonight trying to study for exams and found this website and link

http://health.howstuffworks.com/rock-climbing3.htm
Can you find the deadly mistake(s) on this page? It is always good to know that qualified professionals make websites like this. Makes me wonder what else I should not believe on the internet.


-pip

Can you?


jeep4evr


Jun 2, 2005, 7:40 AM
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His harness is not doubled back at the waist or the left leg!!!!

I don't know if I would call this a deadly mistake for the article. If you aren't a rock climber you aren't going to catch it (hell, even most rc.com members didn't catch it) and the article isn't going as in depth as double backing your harness, just like it isn't going in depth about back clipping, z-clipping, etc. It's just saying what's involved in rock climbing, not it's subtleties.


mheyman


Jun 2, 2005, 9:31 AM
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Lots of BS in this one besides not being doubled back.

Did you know you need biners to attach the rope to the harness?

Did you know you need gloves or chalk?

Did you know you need a belay device and a rappel device?

Did you know that a typical sport route is mutipitch?

Did you know that since a typical sport route is mutipitch there will be a leader and follower?

Did you know that you will only be able to climb a rope length at a time even though the typical sport route the route you are on is mutipitch?

I assume since the belayer will grab the rope if the leader fall that he was not holding it to begin with!

Ugh.


crimpandgo


Jun 2, 2005, 9:53 AM
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Are you folks just bored or do you just like to trash anything that is written about the sport?

Considering some of the crap that is out on the internet, I thought this write-up was relatively realistic and accurate. I can't see some of the pictures (blocked by work internet), so I can't speak for the pictures. But I thought the author did a good job "drawing a picture" for the reader how climbing is done.

Sure there are some inaccuracies, but I would hardly call them deadly mistakes (except for the double back thing, but the average non-climber would not even catch that because the article isn't concentrating on that).

What is wrong with the comments like "use a carabiner to attach the rope to the harness" ?

You don't normally do it this way, but it is an accurate statement. Its not dangerous or deadly. when rapelling, you do attach the rope to your harness using a carabiner indirectly. If you tie into a rope anywhere but the bottom you would do so with a carabiner.


Jeez, I call TROLL .. Go pick on other aritcles/websites that are obviously a lot worse :):)

Flame on :oops:


toejam


Jun 2, 2005, 10:39 AM
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In reply to:
What is wrong with the comments like "use a carabiner to attach the rope to the harness" ?

You don't normally do it this way, but it is an accurate statement. Its not dangerous or deadly. when rapelling, you do attach the rope to your harness using a carabiner indirectly. If you tie into a rope anywhere but the bottom you would do so with a carabiner.

If you said two locking carabiners then I'd say nothing. But using a single carabiner to attach to the rope is inadvisable because the biner could rotate, subjecting the force directly on the gate, potentially resulting in a failure with no backup. Unless you are trying to shave seconds off of a multipitch belay changeover, I see no reason not to tie directly in.

Rapelling (in a normal cautious fashion) subjects the tie-in to far less force than leading or even toproping, and would be unlikely to rotate the carabiner. Many people back up all rappels with an autoblock or prussic. There is also a way to tie into the middle of a rope without a carabiner.


crimpandgo


Jun 2, 2005, 10:59 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
What is wrong with the comments like "use a carabiner to attach the rope to the harness" ?

You don't normally do it this way, but it is an accurate statement. Its not dangerous or deadly. when rapelling, you do attach the rope to your harness using a carabiner indirectly. If you tie into a rope anywhere but the bottom you would do so with a carabiner.

If you said two locking carabiners then I'd say nothing. But using a single carabiner to attach to the rope is inadvisable because the biner could rotate, subjecting the force directly on the gate, potentially resulting in a failure with no backup. Unless you are trying to shave seconds off of a multipitch belay changeover, I see no reason not to tie directly in.

Rapelling (in a normal cautious fashion) subjects the tie-in to far less force than leading or even toproping, and would be unlikely to rotate the carabiner. Many people back up all rappels with an autoblock or prussic. There is also a way to tie into the middle of a rope without a carabiner.

What?????

I trust one locking biner to attach the rope to my harness. Heck most people are willing to trust one belay loop as well. You trust one rope don't you? These three pieces of equipment are generally trusted to be used without redundant back-up. Granted redundancy is good, but not considered necessary in these cases and hardly considered deadly.

There may be a way to tie into the middle without using a locker, but it doesn't make using a locker unsafe. The title of the thread was asking if the article would cause deadly mistakes. I don't believe anything you are suggesting fits into that category.


maculated


Jun 2, 2005, 11:02 AM
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In reply to:
But using a single carabiner to attach to the rope is inadvisable because the biner could rotate, subjecting the force directly on the gate, potentially resulting in a failure with no backup.

Enter the DMM Belay Master


Partner ctardi


Jun 2, 2005, 11:49 AM
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That was a reletivly good artice...


viacontinuum


Jun 2, 2005, 11:49 AM
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In reply to:
Go pick on other aritcles/websites that are obviously a lot worse ...
very good point, but:

In reply to:
Sure there are some inaccuracies, but I would hardly call them deadly mistakes ...
the site claims to explain how stuff works. if the site explained how a radio worked, with "some inaccuracies", why would i want to go there to learn about radios? isn't it the same for climbing?

i agree, though, this was much better than some articles i've read about climbing on the net (bouldering = hiking with obstacles comes to mind). the only thing i might add is that the author seems to suggest that the gloves are used for actual climbing. i haven't done much trad, but as far as i've seen in sport climbing they're more for belaying, aren't they? i guess it's more realistic than suction cups though...

just my two cents.
peace.

ps. check out the animations in the link on the last page to "roped climbing methods"... i dunno, i thought they were pretty cool...


toejam


Jun 2, 2005, 1:52 PM
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I trust one locking biner to attach the rope to my harness. Heck most people are willing to trust one belay loop as well. You trust one rope don't you? These three pieces of equipment are generally trusted to be used without redundant back-up. Granted redundancy is good, but not considered necessary in these cases and hardly considered deadly.

The strength of a belay loop on a BD harness is something like 20kn. Ropes vary, but should be well in excess of the strength of a cross-loaded carabiner, which is generally something like 7kn at best. When rapelling or belaying you can visually or manually check the orientation of your carabiner, something I do frequently. This would be difficult while free climbing, impossible while falling.

So, you are introducing a potential weak link of 7kn into your system, the failure of which should most certainly be considered deadly.


crimpandgo


Jun 2, 2005, 2:40 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I trust one locking biner to attach the rope to my harness. Heck most people are willing to trust one belay loop as well. You trust one rope don't you? These three pieces of equipment are generally trusted to be used without redundant back-up. Granted redundancy is good, but not considered necessary in these cases and hardly considered deadly.

The strength of a belay loop on a BD harness is something like 20kn. Ropes vary, but should be well in excess of the strength of a cross-loaded carabiner, which is generally something like 7kn at best. When rapelling or belaying you can visually or manually check the orientation of your carabiner, something I do frequently. This would be difficult while free climbing, impossible while falling.

So, you are introducing a potential weak link of 7kn into your system, the failure of which should most certainly be considered deadly.

Jam,

You make a very valid point here with the weakness of a cross loaded biner. And if used in a situation that can create those type of forces, my guess is that you would be severely injured due to the force of the fall before the biner broke.

I was also making the assumption (which I failed to mention :oops: ) that the only time you would tie in using a biner would be on top rope which has much lower forces. In this case, I belive the forces will not get that high.

Now, your point in cross loading is still well taken and should be carefully considered. A cross-loaded biner is weaker and the gate is more likely to be accidentally opened. The solution is to watch it dilegently during climbing to make sure it is not cross-loaded. This is sufficient force lower force climbing such as top-roping, or double up if you are really cautious.

Peace.


pipsqueekspire


Jun 2, 2005, 2:59 PM
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Fun stuff! I have a rule- If I see something dangerous that another climber is doing I usually let it go, like clipping in with one locker instead of tying in. (On a TR) This keeps me from getting involved in a prolonged discussion about safety and personal choices.

If I see something DEADLY, something that might fail under body weight I say something right away. This saves me from filling out police reports about accidental deaths. If it turns into an arguement I leave the area because I do NOT want to be involved in their rescue and at least I tried to help. I have only applied this rule two times- once involved daisy chains clipped across the sewn section (400lbs to fail) and the other time involved a boyfriend who did not double back his or his 2 girlfriends harnesses. He was teaching them how to climb. I asked him to stop climbing or get professional instruction before 'guiding' again.

This picture on HowThingsWork.com falls into the DEADLY catagory. I wrote the author a polite email. I think deadly mistakes should never be posted on a "how to" page- no exceptions!


For those of you who could NOT tell immediately that his harness was not doubled back take a second look next time your friend says "Am I on belay?" Especially if she is already 15feet up that scramble start. This is a mistake you never want to miss.



-pip


crimpandgo


Jun 2, 2005, 3:19 PM
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Fun stuff! I have a rule- If I see something dangerous that another climber is doing I usually let it go, like clipping in with one locker instead of tying in. (On a TR) This keeps me from getting involved in a prolonged discussion about safety and personal choices.

If I see something DEADLY, something that might fail under body weight I say something right away. This saves me from filling out police reports about accidental deaths. If it turns into an arguement I leave the area because I do NOT want to be involved in their rescue and at least I tried to help. I have only applied this rule two times- once involved daisy chains clipped across the sewn section (400lbs to fail) and the other time involved a boyfriend who did not double back his or his 2 girlfriends harnesses. He was teaching them how to climb. I asked him to stop climbing or get professional instruction before 'guiding' again.

This picture on HowThingsWork.com falls into the DEADLY catagory. I wrote the author a polite email. I think deadly mistakes should never be posted on a "how to" page- no exceptions!


For those of you who could NOT tell immediately that his harness was not doubled back take a second look next time your friend says "Am I on belay?" Especially if she is already 15feet up that scramble start. This is a mistake you never want to miss.



-pip

anyone who uses a website like this to teach them how to climb is an idiot anyway. The double back issue was a bad mistake on the author's part, but I don't worry that a bunch of nOObs are all of a sudden gonna go out and climb with their harness not double-backed.

Take the article for what it is meant for. A desrciption of what climbing is and how it is done. It give just enough info to peak the interest of a person new to the sport.

honestly, the new climber could just go do the store, buy a bunch of gear and use it. without any instruction at all. Or they could read another website with reallyu wrong information. This site at least makes as attempt to sound genuine. I have to assume the double back is just an oversight. And if not, once the person buys a harness, the instructions on the harness instructions will tell them to double back.


j_kirby


Jun 2, 2005, 3:35 PM
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The radio analogy is crap.

You would not read that website (the "how radios work" section) and attempt to use it as a substitute for the owner's manual for a new radio. Its only intended as a broad qualitative overview.


crimpandgo


Jun 2, 2005, 3:43 PM
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Fun stuff! I have a rule- If I see something dangerous that another climber is doing I usually let it go, like clipping in with one locker instead of tying in. (On a TR) This keeps me from getting involved in a prolonged discussion about safety and personal choices.

If I see something DEADLY, something that might fail under body weight I say something right away. This saves me from filling out police reports about accidental deaths. If it turns into an arguement I leave the area because I do NOT want to be involved in their rescue and at least I tried to help. I have only applied this rule two times- once involved daisy chains clipped across the sewn section (400lbs to fail) and the other time involved a boyfriend who did not double back his or his 2 girlfriends harnesses. He was teaching them how to climb. I asked him to stop climbing or get professional instruction before 'guiding' again.

This picture on HowThingsWork.com falls into the DEADLY catagory. I wrote the author a polite email. I think deadly mistakes should never be posted on a "how to" page- no exceptions!


For those of you who could NOT tell immediately that his harness was not doubled back take a second look next time your friend says "Am I on belay?" Especially if she is already 15feet up that scramble start. This is a mistake you never want to miss.



-pip

oh, and by they way. I don't get your analogy here. Are you saying that if I didn't catch the double back in the picture I must not check for double back in real life? That's just plain silly. climbers are trained to look for potential failures while climbing. Do you believe everyone is looking for errors in the pictures? I don't . I look at the pictures to determine what the author is trying to tell me.

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