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baskara


Apr 20, 2005, 3:56 AM
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munter hitch
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what do you think about using munter hitch to descending the rope? actually i'm not confident to do that because it's give much friction to the rope that can break the rope. How much the strength or resistance of the rope when against the rope like using munter hitch to descending the rope? Thanx.....all


therat


Apr 20, 2005, 4:46 AM
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Re: munter hitch [In reply to]
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LAST RESORT ONLY!!


Partner tisar


Apr 20, 2005, 4:47 AM
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Rappelling on the Munter is a pain. Not so much for the rope wear but mostly for the kink you get into it.

Rope wear is the same as if you would lower someone with the munter, just double it up for the two strands. As this is done regularly (at least in Europe it's quite common to belay with the munter) it's hardly dangerous for the rope. Maybe you'll have to retire it a little earlier.

As belay/rappel devices are very cheap there's no use in descending on the munter anyway. Though it's good to know how to do it, you may need it once...

- Daniel

* edit for spelling *


scottquig


Apr 20, 2005, 4:49 AM
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That's kind of the point of the munter hitch--belaying and descending when you haven't got your device. It's a rope, it's not going to break.


wingnut


Apr 20, 2005, 4:56 AM
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It actually works quite well for both rapelling and belaying, but it does twist the hell out of the rope.

If you need it, use it. if you don't, well, don't.


livinonasandbar


Apr 20, 2005, 6:32 AM
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If you're going to rap using munter hitches, extend one of the knots above the other using a short sling and a second biner. That way the two munters won't be rubbing against another and locking up.

Maybe ya'll know this already... if so, sorry to waste your time.


iltripp


Apr 20, 2005, 6:33 AM
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I've rapped with a munter hitch when it was necessary, although (as almost everyone has said), it is a tremendous pain.

I was flipping through John Long's "Advanced Rock Climbing" yesterday, and I noticed his advice on rapping with a munter. It said to use two separate munters on different, and to extend one with an extra locker. It seems like a complex setup when a single munter on an H.M.S. locker works ok. I wonder how much of a benefit there is... Maybe it would be worth it on really long raps or multipitch raps (although hopefully you don't have to do that with a munter).

On another note, a climber partner of mine when I was in Europe had no belay device. He just used a munter. It worked fine, but I was worried he wouldn't be able to pay out slack fast when needed.


Partner tisar


Apr 20, 2005, 6:48 AM
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In reply to:
On another note, a climber partner of mine when I was in Europe had no belay device. He just used a munter. It worked fine, but I was worried he wouldn't be able to pay out slack fast when needed.

I learned to belay with the Munter first and I've done it for a year before I switched over to the ATC lately. If you're used to it paying out slack needs no more effort than with an ATC.
It doesn't even kink the rope if you keep the strands parallel all the time. I still use the munter from time to time just to keep the feel.

edit to add: From my personal experience I see no sense in useing two biners for abseiling. One big locker does the job quite well except the rope kinging as mentioned before. Two won't make kinkage different so it seems like just more fiddeling to me.

- Daniel


yetanotherdave


Apr 20, 2005, 7:12 AM
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I'd make a rap device by stacking biners before using a munter. The twisting is a pain, especially on long multipitch raps. As a bonis, you can change the number of biners depending on the weight of the climber+gear/rope thickness.

pictures:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm


paulraphael


Apr 20, 2005, 8:56 AM
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In reply to:
I'd make a rap device by stacking biners before using a munter. The twisting is a pain, especially on long multipitch raps. As a bonis, you can change the number of biners depending on the weight of the climber+gear/rope thickness.

pictures:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm

This has been my thinking, too--but I realized that the only times I've used a carabiner brake was with old school oval or d-shaped biners. Anyone know how well the setup works with lightweight, asymetrical, wiregate biners and the like? I don't cary the old stuff anymore except for an oval or 2.


Partner j_ung


Apr 20, 2005, 8:57 AM
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In reply to:
I'd make a rap device by stacking biners before using a munter. The twisting is a pain, especially on long multipitch raps. As a bonis, you can change the number of biners depending on the weight of the climber+gear/rope thickness.

pictures:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm

Yah, I have to agree. I'd way rather biner break than Meunter for a rappel.


slobmonster


Apr 20, 2005, 12:38 PM
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In reply to:
Anyone know how well the setup works with lightweight, asymetrical, wiregate biners and the like? I don't cary the old stuff anymore except for an oval or 2.
It will work fine, with a small caveat. Use your regular-gate biners (2 ovals or Ds) as the torsionally-loaded pair, like this:
http://www.chockstone.org/...Tips/CrabBrake5s.JPG
and then wiregates will work fine as the brake biners:
http://www.chockstone.org/...Tips/CrabBrake1s.JPG
The skinny spines of the wiregates may not give sufficient friction; consider using three (or more).


paulraphael


Apr 20, 2005, 5:47 PM
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ahh, that makes sense. thanks.


mikeehartley


Apr 21, 2005, 7:40 PM
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While the munter is not the rap method of choice for most folks what I've found is that most people have problems with twists because they aren't braking properly (whether belaying or rapping). If you put your brake hand on your hip as with a regular belay device you'll get twists gallore. If you have the brake rope parallel with the loaded strand running up to the anchor (or climber) you will get minimal twists. You also get substantially more braking power this way also. Makes a huge difference if you haven't tried it this way.


tradmanclimbs


Apr 21, 2005, 7:53 PM
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Whats the big deal? The knott is not even a munter. its an old sailing knott. Halfmister? or somthing like that. Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years. It works just fine and is pleanty smooth. if you have your rope management skills dialed the twisting is not a problem and it will get you up and off of a wall if need be. that being said I do have an extra atc in my oh $hit kit 8^)


melekzek


Apr 21, 2005, 8:22 PM
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In reply to:
it's give much friction to the rope that can break the rope

this is hilarious :roll:


climberzrule


May 21, 2005, 1:31 AM
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3 pros for the Munter hitch:

1: It is good for rapping with small ropes because the rope runs over itself. ATCs, figure8s, stitch plates, etc. all run too fast on small diameter ropes.

2: you can pass a knot on rappel without unclipping the rappel device.

3: you don't NEED a rappel device. Good thing if you dropped yours!


ambler


May 21, 2005, 3:56 AM
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In reply to:
Yah, I have to agree. I'd way rather biner break than Meunter for a rappel.
Unintentional humor? 8^)

On shorter, one-rope Munter raps (<30m), I haven't experienced as much kink trouble as other folks are reporting. Both strands on one ordinary locker work just fine.

But constructing a biner brake from a handful of modern funny biners -- that can be less secure. I've watched them start to unclip, as the asymmetrical shapes slide past each other.


slackwareuser


May 22, 2005, 9:53 AM
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tradmanclimbs:
In reply to:
Whats the big deal? The knott is not even a munter. its an old sailing knott. Halfmister? or somthing like that. Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.

BS! You should be :oops:

facts:
Werner Munter is a Swissman, guide since 1975, researcher, former member of the UIAA safety comission. He is best known as an avalanche expert, he devised a system for evaluating avalanche risks. He _did_ invent the Munter hitch - the sailing knot you confuse it with is the clove hitch, aka "Mastwurf". The Munter hitch is aka "Halbmastwurf", Munter-belay is aka "Halbmastwurf-sicherung" - thus the abreviation HMS for biners which can be used for a Munter belay. The Munter belay was the first belay "device" approved by UIAA as safe for belaying a leader on rock.

opinion:
The Munter is still in many ways the best belay method: high friction (less chance of loosing control of the rope) no need to redirect the brake-side when belaying up a second, easy to feed out/take in rope, an HMS biner is all you need, etc.
Of course I'm biased, I use it all the time :)

opinion #2:
tradmanclimbs, your post makes you a complete a$$hole
ever heard of something called google?


tradrenn


May 24, 2005, 7:23 PM
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In reply to:
i'm not confident to do that because it's give much friction to the rope that can break the rope.

That happened to me about 3 weeks ago, and no Munter's Hitch will not brake the rope ( get that out of your head, that's BS ) It is just less comfortable and twists you rope.

Like other user said "EMERGANCY USE ONLY" ( to rappel )


dirtineye


Jun 2, 2005, 11:38 AM
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In reply to:
tradmanclimbs:
In reply to:
Whats the big deal? The knott is not even a munter. its an old sailing knott. Halfmister? or somthing like that. Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.

BS! You should be :oops:

facts:
Werner Munter is a Swissman, guide since 1975, researcher, former member of the UIAA safety comission. He is best known as an avalanche expert, he devised a system for evaluating avalanche risks. He _did_ invent the Munter hitch - the sailing knot you confuse it with is the clove hitch, aka "Mastwurf". The Munter hitch is aka "Halbmastwurf", Munter-belay is aka "Halbmastwurf-sicherung" - thus the abreviation HMS for biners which can be used for a Munter belay. The Munter belay was the first belay "device" approved by UIAA as safe for belaying a leader on rock.

Apparently, Werner Munter did not invent the munter after all. Unless he did it back before he was born. Ashley published in 1944, and the knot had been around a LONG time before that.

From Ashley's,

Knot 1174, the Crossing Knot tied over a stake.

Knot 1195, the Zigzag Knot. ('Double' munter)


slobmonster


Jun 2, 2005, 12:51 PM
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In reply to:
tradmanclimbs:
In reply to:
...Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.
BS! You should be :oops:
...tradmanclimbs, your post makes you a complete a$$hole
ever heard of something called google?
Relax, please. Trusting whatever one finds on google as the last word? That's almost as dangerous as trusting the advice you're likely to receive here.


paulraphael


Jun 2, 2005, 12:59 PM
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it wouldn't be surprising if munter re-invented it, without knowing it had been done before. and he was likely the first person to use the knot for climbing.

it's actually unlikely to truly invent ANY knot. sailors have been tying knots for every imaginable reason (sometimes just boredom) for thousands of years. this whole climbing fad started just a couple of hundred ago. and we were lucky ... all the knots had already been invented. we just had to sort through them all and figure out which ones could be trusted. usually by trial and error.


dirtineye


Jun 2, 2005, 1:31 PM
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In reply to:
it wouldn't be surprising if munter re-invented it, without knowing it had been done before. and he was likely the first person to use the knot for climbing.

that is possible. He certainly popularized it for climbing, from what we can tell.


In reply to:
it's actually unlikely to truly invent ANY knot. sailors have been tying knots for every imaginable reason (sometimes just boredom) for thousands of years. this whole climbing fad started just a couple of hundred ago. and we were lucky ... all the knots had already been invented. we just had to sort through them all and figure out which ones could be trusted. usually by trial and error.

I think this sorting and finding the best ones for climbing is still going on.

For instance, perhaps the constrictor hitch is better than a clove hitch. Possibly the blood or barrel knot is much better than the double or triple fishermans.

And Ashley himself found several new knots. Considering his research did go back several hundred years, what he claimed as his creation was probably all his, at least in terms of published knots.


Partner rgold


Jun 2, 2005, 2:06 PM
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The following quote comes from an article entitled Analysis of Belay Techniques by Carlo Sanantoni, in Journal of the UIAA, 3 (2000), "Equipment and Its Applications."

In reply to:
The MB (Mezzo Barcaiolo = Demi Capstan = Halbmastwurf) is such a simple tool that the only possible development concerned the kind of karabiner used with it; this karabiner is now called HMS (Halbmastwurf- Sicherung) in UIAA standards. The MB name means “a half of the knot which is used by the sailors to secure a boat to a bollard in a harbour”. The fact that the Britons call it the “Italian Hitch” does not suggest, I am afraid, any particular consideration for its inventors but, rather, lack of interest for the device...The Americans did even worse than the Britons: they called it Munter Hitch, referring to a Swiss guide of name Munter who demonstrated the MB, or a similar braking device, during his visit to mountaineering circles in the USA, sometime during the ’70s.

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