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mattm
Jun 2, 2005, 10:37 PM
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Trophy to Mr Gold again for
1) being on the spot with the good information as always
2) being from my old home town of Poughkeepsie
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scuclimber
Jun 3, 2005, 12:08 AM
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In reply to: I am a complete tool!!! |
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papounet
Jun 3, 2005, 12:34 PM
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In reply to: The following quote comes from an article entitled Analysis of Belay Techniques by Carlo Sanantoni, in Journal of the UIAA, 3 (2000), "Equipment and Its Applications." In reply to: The MB (Mezzo Barcaiolo = Demi Capstan = Halbmastwurf) is such a simple tool that the only possible development concerned the kind of karabiner used with it; this karabiner is now called HMS (Halbmastwurf- Sicherung) in UIAA standards. The MB name means “a half of the knot which is used by the sailors to secure a boat to a bollard in a harbour”. The fact that the Britons call it the “Italian Hitch” does not suggest, I am afraid, any particular consideration for its inventors but, rather, lack of interest for the device...The Americans did even worse than the Britons: they called it Munter Hitch, referring to a Swiss guide of name Munter who demonstrated the MB, or a similar braking device, during his visit to mountaineering circles in the USA, sometime during the ’70s.
I used to view rgold posts with the highest respect. This just increased to next-awe status as rgold and I share the same reading.
;-)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=17
Now, can I claim FA right and say that rgold can not retrobolt this piece of information I was first to dig ?
Nawww, I respect rgold too much for this, he can quote this piece of UIAA wisdom all he wants. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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slackwareuser
Jun 3, 2005, 5:51 PM
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rgold:
In reply to: Apparently, Werner Munter did not invent the munter after all. Unless he did it back before he was born. Ashley published in 1944, and the knot had been around a LONG time before that.
I stand corrected.
slobmonster:
In reply to: Relax, please.
You're perfectly right, I need to relax. 8^) I wrote what I wrote in anger, because when I read something like "Munter was an egotistical austrian" I see things through a red haze... I think people who strive to make climbing safer for all of us deserve more than this.
It's like when I read the name of Dr. Karl Prusik misspelled in all possible ways... must be a Euro's obsession with encycopledic knowledge. Or is it simply respect?
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drector
Jun 3, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: It's like when I read the name of Dr. Karl Prusik misspelled in all possible ways... must be a Euro's obsession with encycopledic knowledge. Or is it simply respect?
Ah. The curse of the internet. Bad or incorrect information is more readily available than correct and useful information. Especially spelling of peoples names. This thread is a testament to that.
But you may also be right about respect considering the 2nd grade grammar and miscapitalization of the word "I" seen constantly on the internet.
Oh, and I've used the M.H., M.B., I.H., knot for rappel a few times using the two carabiner, with one offset, method. In a pinch, you could get by with a standard QD and a standard carabiner, but lockers are the only safe choice. I didn't have a twisting problem. I've also used it for belay. There is nothing "EMERGENCY ONLY" about this knot. It is safe and useful.
Dave
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papounet
Jun 3, 2005, 10:16 PM
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Seriously, one of the most useful application of the Munter hitch is for the leader to belay his/her second. Using it to belay the leader requires more care when giving slack.
Rappelling or belaying a top rope with the Munter hitch on the contrary create a lot of kinks in the rope.
French guides, and all kind of German and Dutch climbers routinely use the Munter hitch instead of more complex tools as it requires no extra gear, does not kink the rope (if used in this manner) and may provide some dynamism through limited rope slippage.
It is not an uncomon sight to see in French mountains and crags climbers belaying with a Munter and using a fig_8 descender for rappels
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ddriver
Jun 7, 2005, 10:39 PM
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Here's my stupid Munter story for your entertainment.
My wife and I were headed down to Durango to visit friends and decided to climb Otto's Route on Independence Monument at Colorado National Monument. It's mostly easy but has a cool overhanging finish. Anyway, we were hours from home, pulled into the lot only to discover we hadn't brought our climbing packs. There was a duffel bag in the truck with ropes, one pair of climbing shoes, a handful of slings and some nuts. What the hell, we'll go take a look. We fashioned harnesses using flat webbing for her and sewn supertape for me. I lead while she followed in running shoes. Everything went well and we topped out. The moment of dread arrived with the descent, starting with a free rappel off the summit. We had only enough biners for her to fashion a carabiner brake rappel device. I was forced to rappel using a double-rope munter hitch. What a clusterf**k, and that supertape was none too comfortable on the family jewels. So, my advice is to avoid at all costs rappelling with a Munter. :wink:
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kimmyt
Jun 7, 2005, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: Seriously, one of the most useful application of the Munter hitch is for the leader to belay his/her second. Using it to belay the leader requires more care when giving slack.
On that note, instead of posting another topic or doing a search (what, so I'm lazy!) I recently used the Munter to belay up the second after one of us had dropped our ATCs. We switched off and on with the remaining ATC, the leader using the Munter to belay up the second and on the next pitch as we switched leaders we passed the belay device up.
So my question is, since the Munter is a friction knot, and if the rope is weighted when you're belaying a second (say your second falls and needs to be lowered to a ledge in the case of an overhang or a roof) how can you do this? It seems it would be very hard or impossible, but maybe I'm missing something...
K.
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moondog
Jun 7, 2005, 10:52 PM
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In reply to: Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.
not sure about this. much of the world calls it the "italian hitch" - i think american climbers named it the munter hitch after the guy who first "showed" it to them (mr. munter).
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papounet
Jun 8, 2005, 1:19 AM
Post #36 of 43
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In reply to: In reply to: Seriously, one of the most useful application of the Munter hitch is for the leader to belay his/her second. Using it to belay the leader requires more care when giving slack. On that note, instead of posting another topic or doing a search (what, so I'm lazy!) I recently used the Munter to belay up the second after one of us had dropped our ATCs. We switched off and on with the remaining ATC, the leader using the Munter to belay up the second and on the next pitch as we switched leaders we passed the belay device up. So my question is, since the Munter is a friction knot, and if the rope is weighted when you're belaying a second (say your second falls and needs to be lowered to a ledge in the case of an overhang or a roof) how can you do this? It seems it would be very hard or impossible, but maybe I'm missing something... K.
What you miss is seing how the Munter hitch, which is one side of the biner as the belayer yards the slack, gets pulled through the biner if there is a tension on the other side. Suddenly the rope under tension squashes the rope loop against the biner and provides the friction, which makes the Munter so interesting.
This is why a large biner (HMS) is preferred
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slobmonster
Jun 8, 2005, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: ... but maybe I'm missing something... |
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paulraphael
Jun 8, 2005, 3:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ... but maybe I'm missing something... Just try it out, with a nice large 'biner as already suggested. The hitch does not "block" the rope completely. You still need your hand to do the braking; lowering someone once the hitch is loaded is easy as pie.
This is an advantage the munter has over autoblocking devices: the fact that it does not lock up. I like the hands-free advantages of my b-52, but in a situation where I think there's a chance the 2nd may need slack or be lowered (beginners especially) I opt for the Munter. Much easier to use in these situations.
This is also why the Munter/mule combination is used in rescues. It's one of the few climbers' knots that can be released under load.
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nonick
Jun 8, 2005, 4:52 AM
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I've used a munter to rapell without any problems at all. Its incredibly useful to know in case you drop your belay device. ITs a great knot to belay as well.
A munter is one of the "must know" knots.
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knudenoggin
Jun 8, 2005, 5:50 AM
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In reply to: it wouldn't be surprising if munter re-invented it, without knowing it had been done before. and he was likely the first person to use the knot for climbing.
Btw, it's 'Carlo Zanantoni' (not 'San'...: hmmm, "S" & "Z" differentiate twists :o)
Thanks to others for noting this reference, which was (still?) accessible on-line.
As for twisting/kinking with the MB (Mezzo Barcaiolo, to acknowledge Italians),
to quote Clyde Soles's Outdoor Knots, pp52-3:
Similarly [to the use of a figure-eight rappel device] the Munter hitch is often
accused of severely kinking ropes, particularly if used for a rappel, but this is
another case of pilot error. It will add twists only when the brake hand is held off
to the side--really! Prove this to yourself by gripping the rope tightly as it runs
under tension through a Munter and you will feel the twists building up only
when the rope is not parallel.
In reply to: it's actually unlikely to truly invent ANY knot. sailors have been tying knots for every imaginable reason (sometimes just boredom) for thousands of years. this whole climbing fad started just a couple of hundred ago. and we were lucky ... all the knots had already been invented. we just had to sort through them all and figure out which ones could be trusted. usually by trial and error.
debatable term. But sailors and other cordage users of the past didn't contend
with the various synthetic cordage modern users face--perhaps esp. the great
elasticity of nylon presenting a challenge, and again now the great slickness
of some hi-modulus fibers. (For some relatively new friction hitches, check out
some arborist sites!)
In reply to: And Ashley himself found several new knots. Considering his research did go back several hundred years, what he claimed as his creation was probably all his, at least in terms of published knots.
far, IMHO: the highly dynamic (and safety critical) use given to that structure by
some climbing innovators is not at all anticipated in prior works, AFAIK.
Among some things he claims to have originated (his claim to the Constrictor,
fyi, is shown to be false, though I doubt he knew), he hasn't always seen the
full benefit. E.g., #1425 is a quite good bend (rope-2-rope joint), but Ashley
dismisses it as "lacking in outstanding qualities," but it actually is pretty
impressive in combining strength, security-when-slack, & ability to be untied
(as opposed to, say, the Grapevine Bend). (His tying method and images
are less outstanding.)
Ashley's Stopper (misnamed "Oysterman's" by him) is quite nice; this got
into Clyde's book, albeit bass ackwards, as the "Bowline Stopper". Well,
here, neither "invention" nor "discovery" seems apt, but it's a common way!
(Just load the opposite end from what Clyde shows; it's much quicker to tie,
too--a simple Overhand Noose with the end nipped by the noose.)
(-;
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dirtineye
Jun 8, 2005, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And Ashley himself found several new knots. Considering his research did go back several hundred years, what he claimed as his creation was probably all his, at least in terms of published knots. To credit him or prior works for showing the DemiCapstan/MB/Munter goes too far, IMHO: the highly dynamic (and safety critical) use given to that structure by some climbing innovators is not at all anticipated in prior works, AFAIK. Among some things he claims to have originated (his claim to the Constrictor, fyi, is shown to be false, though I doubt he knew), he hasn't always seen the full benefit. E.g., #1425 is a quite good bend (rope-2-rope joint), but Ashley dismisses it as "lacking in outstanding qualities," but it actually is pretty impressive in combining strength, security-when-slack, & ability to be untied (as opposed to, say, the Grapevine Bend). (His tying method and images are less outstanding.) Ashley's Stopper (misnamed "Oysterman's" by him) is quite nice; this got into Clyde's book, albeit bass ackwards, as the "Bowline Stopper". Well, here, neither "invention" nor "discovery" seems apt, but it's a common way! (Just load the opposite end from what Clyde shows; it's much quicker to tie, too--a simple Overhand Noose with the end nipped by the noose.) (-;
That Ashley showed the munter cannont be denied, it is there in black and white. The fact that this knot has climbing uses, promoted by others, does not influence the prior existence of the knot.
#1452 is a nice bend that he claims.
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knudenoggin
Jun 8, 2005, 8:33 PM
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In reply to: That Ashley showed the munter cannont be denied, it is there in black and white. The fact that this knot has climbing uses, promoted by others, does not influence the prior existence of the knot.
in B&W, or something more. There's nothing in Ashley or elsewhere at that
time to suggest the dynamic use of this knot.
In reply to: #1452 is a nice bend that he claims.
such features as I described. One fellow did some break testing in small stuff
of the knot-A vs. knot-B sort, and 14twentyfive fared well.
(There are a couple of ways of tying the other,
"Ashley's Bend" (CLDay, et al.), 14fiftytwo: if you position the ends so that they do some
walking and leave their collars loose, you get a knot that can jam secure
from loosening (but possibly be hard to untie, and weaker, IMHO); put the
ends the other side of each other, and it's wonderfully easy to untie, no
matter.)
(-;
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dirtineye
Jun 8, 2005, 9:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: That Ashley showed the munter cannont be denied, it is there in black and white. The fact that this knot has climbing uses, promoted by others, does not influence the prior existence of the knot. This then is a debate about what a knot is--whether just some image in B&W, or something more. There's nothing in Ashley or elsewhere at that time to suggest the dynamic use of this knot.
The three mentions of what we now call the munter in Ashley's are reporting the use of the knot and show that the knot existed and was used prior to the 1970's. That is far from the knot merely being an image in black and white.
As for the dynamic use of the knot, check out the zigzag knot description in Ashley's.
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