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yoyo


Jun 14, 2005, 12:32 PM
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Self-rescue exercises, etc.
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The on/off showers over the last 2 weeks (and continuing) means I'll allow myself to dedicate a showery weekend to learning & reviewing some rescue techniques.

Here are a few things I've decided to practice:
Escaping the belay / re-entering the belay system.
A ascending technique or 2, especially with minimal gear.
Simulate abseiling in hi-winds.

What I'm interested to know is: Do you lot have any particular systems that warrent practice. i eagerly look forward to viewing your list of suggestions. Please help me build a constructive day!


Partner j_ung


Jun 14, 2005, 12:49 PM
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Knot passing.


bill413


Jun 14, 2005, 1:08 PM
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In escaping the belay system - try it with all the different variations of set-up...that is....belaying off your harness...belaying with a redirect....belaying off the anchors...with whatever different devices you use.


gunkiemike


Jun 14, 2005, 1:36 PM
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Leader traverses off the belay 250' up. They fall trying to negotiate an overhanging arete. They are unable to help themselves (for whatever reason) and are hanging on the rope 8' below the last piece. They are 10' above and 40' to the right of your position. Your rope is 50m long. What do you do?

Add details as you need: belay directly on anchor with Grigri, or Munter Hitch. Belayed off waist with various devices, etc.


Partner drector


Jun 14, 2005, 1:55 PM
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Try the Self Rescue book by David Fasulo. It will give you some goof ideas on what to try. For instance, climbing up to a stranded and hurt leader while self-belaying on the lead rope (after excaping the belay, etc...).

Dave


kman


Jun 14, 2005, 1:57 PM
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In reply to:
Leader traverses off the belay 250' up. They fall trying to negotiate an overhanging arete. They are unable to help themselves (for whatever reason) and are hanging on the rope 8' below the last piece. They are 10' above and 40' to the right of your position. Your rope is 50m long. What do you do?

Communication would be key in this case. Yell the following words so he can hear. "NOW YOU'VE DONE IT...YOUR SCREWED NOW PAL." lol Just kidding.


angelaa


Jun 14, 2005, 2:02 PM
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I always run through this stuff before any big trip . . . nice to keep it all fresh in your mind!

We hang crap out of the big maple tree in the back yard - throw on the harnesses and get the strangest looks from our neighbors :oops:


dangle


Jun 14, 2005, 2:59 PM
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It must be the harnesses. I get strange looks from the neighbors and don't even have any trees to hang crap IN.

Anybody ever get "Do you work for the phone company?"


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Jun 14, 2005, 3:19 PM
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In reply to:
Leader traverses off the belay 250' up. They fall trying to negotiate an overhanging arete. They are unable to help themselves (for whatever reason) and are hanging on the rope 8' below the last piece. They are 10' above and 40' to the right of your position. Your rope is 50m long. What do you do?

Add details as you need: belay directly on anchor with Grigri, or Munter Hitch. Belayed off waist with various devices, etc.

Are they conscious? Are they able to move, just not re-ascend the rope?

T


gunkiemike


Jun 14, 2005, 4:27 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Leader traverses off the belay 250' up. They fall trying to negotiate an overhanging arete. They are unable to help themselves (for whatever reason) and are hanging on the rope 8' below the last piece. They are 10' above and 40' to the right of your position. Your rope is 50m long. What do you do?

Add details as you need: belay directly on anchor with Grigri, or Munter Hitch. Belayed off waist with various devices, etc.

Are they conscious? Are they able to move, just not re-ascend the rope?

T

Why not try both scenarios - they are conscious, then they are unconscious. In the first case maybe you just need to be able to get a rope or prusik gear to them. In the latter, some hauling is going to be required. But hauling them up to the last piece is no good if there's 40' of sparsely geared thin traverse between there and the belay. So what to do, what to do??

It's integrated scenarios like this that are the limitation of the Self Rescue book IMO. The skills presented are fine, but might leave the self-learner with a false sense that they know what to do when things go south. Even the classic escape-the-belay drill is often inappropriate in many cases. When time counts and you need to get to the injured leader FAST, stay on the line and counterweight ascend to them (this is REAL easy if you're on a Grigri).

A second edition ("Advanced Self Rescue") is sorely needed. IMO.


tori


Jun 14, 2005, 4:47 PM
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[quote="taino"]
In reply to:
Leader traverses off the belay 250' up. They fall trying to negotiate an overhanging arete. They are unable to help themselves (for whatever reason) and are hanging on the rope 8' below the last piece. They are 10' above and 40' to the right of your position. Your rope is 50m long. What do you do?

Add details as you need: belay directly on anchor with Grigri, or Munter Hitch. Belayed off waist with various devices, etc.


I saw Touching The Void. I know what to do, cut and run baby, cut and run. :D


Partner rgold


Jun 14, 2005, 5:06 PM
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In reply to:
Even the classic escape-the-belay drill is often inappropriate in many cases. When time counts and you need to get to the injured leader FAST, stay on the line and counterweight ascend to them (this is REAL easy if you're on a Grigri).



I agree that the Fasulo book is useful, but some of it seems like a theoretical exercise that is going to be hard to implement in real situations. There is an excellent account (without gri gri) about rescuing the leader via counterweight ascent on gunks.com.


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Jun 14, 2005, 9:36 PM
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I always tell my students that it is almost better to know self rescue than it is to know how to climb.

Great scenario gunkiemike.

Thanks rgold for the link too.


dirtineye


Jun 14, 2005, 10:15 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Leader traverses off the belay 250' up. They fall trying to negotiate an overhanging arete. They are unable to help themselves (for whatever reason) and are hanging on the rope 8' below the last piece. They are 10' above and 40' to the right of your position. Your rope is 50m long. What do you do?

Add details as you need: belay directly on anchor with Grigri, or Munter Hitch. Belayed off waist with various devices, etc.

Are they conscious? Are they able to move, just not re-ascend the rope?

T

Why not try both scenarios - they are conscious, then they are unconscious. In the first case maybe you just need to be able to get a rope or prusik gear to them. In the latter, some hauling is going to be required. But hauling them up to the last piece is no good if there's 40' of sparsely geared thin traverse between there and the belay. So what to do, what to do??

It's integrated scenarios like this that are the limitation of the Self Rescue book IMO. The skills presented are fine, but might leave the self-learner with a false sense that they know what to do when things go south. Even the classic escape-the-belay drill is often inappropriate in many cases. When time counts and you need to get to the injured leader FAST, stay on the line and counterweight ascend to them (this is REAL easy if you're on a Grigri).

A second edition ("Advanced Self Rescue") is sorely needed. IMO.


I don't see why you want to haul this guy up anything. If he is really injured, better to lead over to his last piece, check it, make an anchor there, and get ready for a tandem rappel. I think you left enough rope in the system to just pull the two of you back to your original belay and get down from there.


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Jun 14, 2005, 10:23 PM
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simple....string yourself up in a rope....with no gear.......get down.....solve problem yourself....

fucking around in situations like this will cause you to be innovative and desprite.


Partner philbox
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Jun 14, 2005, 10:40 PM
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dirtineye, those were my thoughts too when I first thought about what I would do in this scenario. I`ve since been pondering the mechanics of achieving what you described and come to the conclusion that it would be an immense pain to get back to the original anchor.

Let`s explore your scenario solution.

I assume that you get yourself to the leader. Your anchor is now 10 feet below you but is 40 feet away. Thus you have more traverse than abseil. Let us also assume that there are say 5 pieces of gear counting the piece you are hanging on. Thus you have around about 4 equal gaps of ten feet each roughly.

You start to rap and traverse clipped into the original leaders line, before you get to the first piece you hit on the way down there will be so much weight on the line that you will now be well underneath the piece and you will in fact have to jug back up to the piece. You can`t unclip from the line otherwise you will pendulum back under the top piece. Try swinging a dead weight of asay 80 kgs around and you`ll understand that what you suggest is not that easy to accomplish. Better to work with gravity than agin it wouldn`t you say.

I`m thinking better to simply set up an anchor and pull the rope and tandem rap to the ground.

I very much like the scenario of not fixing the rope at the original anchor belay. Scary but quick. I also like ensuring that there are two pieces between me and doom. I`m also mindful that speed getting to a hanging victim is essential but counter to that is the need to keep myself safe at all times so that there are not two victims to deal with.

I can see that this method would be a very useful tool in an extreme situation.


papounet


Jun 15, 2005, 8:48 AM
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In reply to:
I don't see why you want to haul this guy up anything. If he is really injured, better to lead over to his last piece, check it, make an anchor there, and get ready for a tandem rappel. I think you left enough rope in the system to just pull the two of you back to your original belay and get down from there.

I am sorry, I amost but not completely get it.

EDIT:
Well, I just went to the link rgold contributed, and, boy, my own rambling below should probably be deleted.
I now understand gunkiemike reference to counterweight ascend

Please consider what is written below as only a discussion on how to get the leader back to the way-to the side original belay.
(and yes, I shudder at the though of having to counterweight ascend on one piece of unknown quality, call me chicken if you will)


basis 1: The leader is incapacited, you have to anchor the rope to your inital belay. then escape the belay. You have around 90feet of rope to play with (??)

question 1: How do you suggest to lead over to the leader ? prusiking on the taut rope while trailing the extra rope, self belay on the remaining rope?, both ?

basis 2: you are at the last protection point, you set a second anchor here.
because of rope length you are able to attach the rope you brought up there (rope at this time go from leader to second anchor to below anchor back to second anchor and some free bit)

if you are lucky with rope length, the goingup segment and the free bit will enable you to rappel to first anchor: you rappel to the leader , secure him, detach the rope from him. How do pass the intermediate protection points you have clipped the going up strand while climbing self belayed from below .

If the remaining rope length is not enough, I would seriously consider

a/
haul the leader 10 feet to the second anchor and set up a sort of tyrolean traverse with biners and prusik knots on the taut rope running between the 2 anchors. Once both arrived at original belay station, you would have to detach the rope going up attach the end of the rope to this anchor, climb up once more to your second anchor self belayed form below, with
an extra self belay form above, set up a proper rappel for yourself.

or /b
climb up to the last pro, transform it into anchor, attach the rope to the leader there (escaping the first anchor point), going back to the below anchor, detaching the leader rope there, going back up removing the intermediate pro, setting up the rappel.
if was intent on reaching the first belay again, I would before going for the second time attach the end of the rope at this belay, and rappel using a biner on the line coming up (cable-car system ???).

Although setting up the full exercise seems difficult , I am tempted to test in a gym to rappel on rope when one strand is attached way to the side at the bottom. I am tempted to think that there is an angle where it is best to have zero friction on the strand attached at the bottom and double the friction on the other side

yesterday, we just did an exercise with ropes in the gym (aka a via ferrata), you would have been surprised how tough it was to haul oneself across rope bridges made with dynamic ropes.

I would not look forward to have to rappel in diagonal with double weight


papounet


Jun 15, 2005, 9:07 AM
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The exercises I would think of involve:

* self rescue:
- after a fall, you are at the end of the rope, how do you get up by yourself ?

* second rescue:
- helping a second ,
- hauling a second (did I say Z-pulley),
- transforming the rappel of your second into a lowering
- escaping the belay

* messy rappel:
- you do not trust the anchor, what do you do ?
- rope is stuck, how do you belay the lucky climber who gets to climb twice ?

* making do with the minimum:
- prusiking with cordelette and sling
- Munter hitch
- sling harness

* checking your epic kit:
- what is the absolute minimum gear you have to to have


dirtineye


Jun 15, 2005, 9:41 AM
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In reply to:
dirtineye, those were my thoughts too when I first thought about what I would do in this scenario. I`ve since been pondering the mechanics of achieving what you described and come to the conclusion that it would be an immense pain to get back to the original anchor.

Let`s explore your scenario solution.

I assume that you get yourself to the leader. Your anchor is now 10 feet below you but is 40 feet away. Thus you have more traverse than abseil. Let us also assume that there are say 5 pieces of gear counting the piece you are hanging on. Thus you have around about 4 equal gaps of ten feet each roughly.

You start to rap and traverse clipped into the original leaders line, before you get to the first piece you hit on the way down there will be so much weight on the line that you will now be well underneath the piece and you will in fact have to jug back up to the piece. You can`t unclip from the line otherwise you will pendulum back under the top piece. Try swinging a dead weight of asay 80 kgs around and you`ll understand that what you suggest is not that easy to accomplish. Better to work with gravity than agin it wouldn`t you say.

I`m thinking better to simply set up an anchor and pull the rope and tandem rap to the ground.

That's why the first thing I said was get ready for a tandem rap, by building an anchor at the last piece of pro, and then second I said MAYBE you could get back to your original belay. It's possible that getting back to the original belay is the only good way down.

The details depend on the actual situation. At any rate, to go down, you are going to have to build another anchor after the first rappel, since you are 250 feet up with 165 feet of rope.


papounet


Jun 15, 2005, 10:00 AM
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Thread hijack mode on:

in the reference rgold submitted
http://www.gunks.com/index.php?pageid=195&pagenum=1&smGroup=2&smID=4

In reply to:
For this scenario, you'll eventually need the entire length of rope to lower your partner, so do NOT anchor your end of the rope at your belay stance. What you're going to do instead is ascend the rope (unanchored) using your partner as a counterbalance*. Sounds scary, but what else are you going to do?

I wonder if it is not better to lower the leader as much as possible. In that fashion you may reach him much faster.
What happens if the belayer having lower as much as possible the leader, instead of ascending the rock, free climbs while attachedto the end of the roep, would that act as a coutnerweight system to get both of them at the middle point ?


dirtineye


Jun 15, 2005, 10:24 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't see why you want to haul this guy up anything. If he is really injured, better to lead over to his last piece, check it, make an anchor there, and get ready for a tandem rappel. I think you left enough rope in the system to just pull the two of you back to your original belay and get down from there.

I am sorry, I amost but not completely get it.


basis 1: The leader is incapacited, you have to anchor the rope to your inital belay. then escape the belay. You have around 90feet of rope to play with (??)

question 1: How do you suggest to lead over to the leader ? prusiking on the taut rope while trailing the extra rope, self belay on the remaining rope?, both ?

I think I would want to prussik, but I'd have to see the actual situation to be sure.


In reply to:
basis 2: you are at the last protection point, you set a second anchor here.
because of rope dimension you are able to attach the rope you brought up there (rope at this time go from leader to second anchor to below anchor back to second anchor and some free bit)

if you are lucky with rope length, the goingup segment and the free bit will enable you to rappel to first anchor: you rappel to the leader , secure him, detach the rope from him. How do pass the intermediate protection points you have clipped the going up strand while climbing self belayed from below .

If the remaining rope length is not enough, I would seriously consider

a/
haul the leader 10 feet to the second anchor and set up a sort of tyrolean traverse with biners and prusik knots on the taut rope running between the 2 anchors. Once both arrived at original belay station, you would have to detach the rope going up attach the end of the rope to this anchor, climb up once more to your second anchor self belayed form below, with
an extra self belay form above, set up a proper rappel for yourself.

or /b
climb up to the last pro, transform it into anchor, attach the rope to the leader there (escaping the first anchor point), going back to the below anchor, detaching the leader rope there, going back up removing the intermediate pro, setting up the rappel.
if was intent on reaching the first belay again, I would before going for the second time attach the end of the rope at this belay, and rappel using a biner on the line coming up (cable-car system ???).

Although setting up the full exercise seems difficult , I am tempted to test in a gym to rappel on rope when one strand is attached way to the side at the bottom. I am tempted to think that there is an angle where it is best to have zero friction on the strand attached at the bottom and double the friction on the other side

yesterday, we just did an exercise with ropes in the gym (aka a via ferrata), you would have been surprised how tough it was to haul oneself across rope bridges made with dynamic ropes.

I would not look forward to have to rappel in diagonal with double weight

First, as I said originally, you must build an anchor at the last piece of pro. That is the first step in this scenario. Then get to your victim (you made him incapacitated, he's now a victim and you are rescuing).

What you do next to get down depends. If you can touch the wall you might not have too much trouble getting back to the original belay. If you and the victim are free hanging you might have to be clever.

I don't like choice a/. I'm not too sure I understand your choice b/. What's going to happen to your victim when you, "detach the leader rope there", at the original belay?


jumpingrock


Jun 15, 2005, 11:07 AM
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In reply to:
- rope is stuck, how do you belay the lucky climber who gets to climb twice ?

This is my theory on this one:

You have all the slack from the rope that was pulled already.
Tie in on a f8 when the rope is tight. Start climbing and lead like normal.
There will be a coil of slack building up on you. When your belayer runs outta rope, stop, anchor yourself and move your tie in until you have the original amount of slack below you. Then you can continue to climb.

This fails in 2 cases, 1 you weren't rapping down a route 2 you barely have any rope at all. In the case of 2 you should have enough slack to reach the other rope. In case 1, I imagine that you could still use this method while jugging up the rope. I imagine it would be more complex and very very sketchy but at least you would (might) have some protection in.

Comments?


aikibujin


Jun 15, 2005, 12:41 PM
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As someone who has never had to perform self-rescue in real life, who is not an expert on the subject matter, who is in fact, a very scared climber, this is what I would do. Feedbacks are appreciated.

Scenario 1: assume the leader is not hanging 260 feet with pure air underneath. Assume there is something within half a rope length under the leader you can reach and establish an intermediate rap anchor.
1. Anchor the rope with munter mule (anchor A), escape the belay.
2. Self belay to the leader's last piece with two prussiks on harness, passing the pros along the way. Still tied to the other end of the rope.
3. Reinforce the last piece (anchor B), anchor myself. From my end of the rope, lower a loop to the leader.
3a. if the leader is conscious, create a 4:1 and haul leader to anchor B.
3b. if the leader is unconscious, fix the loop of rope, rap on a single strand to the leader, give first aid, raise leader's legs with sling to prevent harness hang syndrome. Ascent to anchor B, create a 4:1 and haul leader to anchor B.
4. With both leader and myself anchored to B, fix the rope at B.
5. Self belay back to anchor A with two prussiks, passing the pros.
6. Break down anchor A, self belay back to anhor B, yet again, clean the gear.
7. Unfix the rope. Tandem rappel to intermediate rap anchor.
8. Tandem rappel to ground.

Scenario 2: assume the leader IS hanging 260 feet in the air with no way of rappelling from his position.
1. Anchor the rope with munter mule (anchor A), escape the belay. Reinforce the anchor for upward/sideward pull.
2. Self belay to the leader's last piece with two prussiks.
3. Reinforce the last piece (anchor B) for sideward pull. From my end of the rope, lower a loop to the leader.
3a. If the leader is conscious, have them clip the loop of rope to their harness with a locker.
3b. If the leader is unconscious, rap down to the leader, give first aid, raise their legs. Clip a loop of rope to their harness with a locker. Ascent back to anchor B.
4. Self belay back to anchor A with two prussiks, attach self to anchor A. Now the leader is tied in to one end of the rope, and has a loop of rope clipped to their harness with a locker (2:1).
5. Release the mule knot on anchor B, lower the leader with the munter.
6. When the leader is slightly below the belay, mule the munter again, fix the slack end of the mule knot to the anchor, haul the leader in with the 2:1, make it into a 6:1 if necessary.
7. Attach the leader to anchor B. Untie them from the rope, pull the rope, cry a little - say good bye to all the gear still on the route.
8. Tandem rap.

It may seem less efficient to anchor the rope at anchor A, but I choose to do this in this case, instead of a counterweight ascent. Even though I haven't tried counterweight ascent on a traverse, I imagine it is not very suitable.

Of course, that's just the armchair climber in me talking. In real life, I probably would just cry and ask for my mommy.


Partner j_ung


Jun 15, 2005, 1:52 PM
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Re: Self-rescue exercises, etc. [In reply to]
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Certainly there are some worst-case scenarios and it's fun, sometimes educational, to play "What If"...

Your leader is unconscious and inverted, hanging free from a single RP on a wall that overhangs 45 degrees. You have only 20 minutes till nightfall and birds are attacking you...

But the really bad, unconscious climber scenarios are far rarer than some other self-rescue situations. The situations you're most likely to face don't involve any injuries...

* Your rope is hopelessly stuck on the rappel pull and you are nowhere near the ground.
* You have to bail in the face of a sudden storm.
* Your only rope got core shot when the leader fell across a sharp edge. You've decide to tie a knot to isolate the bad spot and retreat by rappel. How do you pass the knot?
* You (or your partner) fell trying to pull the lip of a big roof while seconding and you (he) cannot reach the rock to try again.


Those are just a few examples. There are countless more and, if you don't know how to limit your losses and the time it takes to deal with them, each one can deteriorate into a desparate fight for survival. IMO, that's where every student of self rescue should start.


papounet


Jun 15, 2005, 3:49 PM
Post #25 of 34 (5977 views)
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Re: Self-rescue exercises, etc. [In reply to]
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I don't like choice a/. I'm not too sure I understand your choice b/. What's going to happen to your victim when you, "detach the leader rope there", at the original belay?
bad explanation on my part, once the last pro has been converted to an anchor, the leader rope is attached at this second anchor, then I can go at the first belay and detach the rope there. the victim is stiil suspended to the second anchor.

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