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taxexile
Jul 11, 2002, 10:35 AM
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I've trekked in Nepal a few times (although not the Everest region), and I think the real environmental damage is caused not by climbers but trekkers, simply because there are far of them. As was noted in a previous post, the major trash heaps are restricted to fairly isolated areas such as base camps and, while they may look unsightly, don't really have much of an environmental effect.
Trekkers outnumber climbers by, at a guess, a factor of 1,000. Commercial trekking groups have dozens of porters, guides, cooks etc. This results in enormous pressures on the more popular trekking routes, probably the most damaging effect being the cutting rhododendron forests for firewood. The trekking industry also artificially increases the number of people living in the mountains and keeping livestock which further damage vegetation.
In some parts of Nepal, notably the Annapurna region, local conservation initiatives have been established to try to reduce the impact of tourists. For example, in theory, kerosene stoves are obligatory to remove the need to firewood. In practise, firewood is still cut on a significant scale.
It is naiive to imagine that Nepal will voluntarily close down one of its few significant resources. To make any real impact, not just Everest itself would need to be closed, but the approach treks. This would lose the country millions of dollars in revenue.
However, with the current Maoist terrorism in Nepal, it's possible that numbers of trekkers will fall dramatically anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: taxexile on 2002-07-11 03:49 ]
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mrtristan
Jul 11, 2002, 10:56 AM
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do you guys honestly think that a freaking mountain is more important than the well being of millions of people????? i mean yeah it would be *nice* if it were clean and stuff but i think the money brought in is more helpful than the damage donw to the mountain. but hey, i'm a 16 year old punk and dont understand everything yet...
"...that doesn't dismiss the fact that if it does continue, Everest will be trashed and expeditions will eventually stop going there. "
come on. if the mountain were an 8000m pile of dung (which it probably will be soon?) people would still climb the sucker. and what would all of those people who work in the tourism industry (sherpas/porters, travel agents, etc, etc) do. I mean, you're talking about thousands of people out of work. and people wont just go to other regions b/c everest was shut down. the reason lots of people go there is to see and climb on the world's highest mountain. there are others that are cooler looking and stuff but everest will always be popular just because its the biggest. so you'd lose additonal tourism money from people not going to everest.
so, take the out of work sherpas with nothing to do, take away tourist $$, no $$ from mountain permits, and add maoist insurgencies and stuff and you have on seriously screwed up country. but lets be reasonable, theres no way the Nepali or Chinese (:lol: ) would actually shut down everest. no way. again, just a 16 year old punk talking but still...
-Tristan
(edited to fix some of the smily things that didnt work...)
[ This Message was edited by: mrtristan on 2002-07-11 03:57 ]
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apollodorus
Jul 11, 2002, 11:39 AM
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With the media-fueled frenzy of Vertical Limit foaming the brains of the stock-selling moguls, they should close Everest and open K2, at $999.99 per. That way, only the best and the brightest will return to Wall Street and move forth with some semblance of sanity in the financial arena.
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taxexile
Jul 11, 2002, 12:02 PM
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Inspired!
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vertical_reality
Jul 11, 2002, 12:07 PM
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Restricting access to Everest will not solve the problem... it will stop it from getting worse but will do nothing at all to help fix it. Everest cannot regenerate itself. There are no plants or wildlife to recover, everything that is there will not go away. Bodies, feces, whatever, will not decompose. What would keeping people off the mountain do?
There are certain things that the governments of Nepal and Tipet are doing to try and improve the situation. Sherpas are paid $4 (I think) for every oxygen bottle that they bring off the mountain. I believe even expeditions are paid a certain amount for bringing garbage off the mountain.
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newtocalgary
Jul 11, 2002, 2:41 PM
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Another 2 cents worth from a guy thats been there
Base camp is a pit but the way the rules work now is when you bring in all your gear and equipment (food water O2 is all weighed)
you have to bring out that weight plus 15% to 20 % more) remebering you have eaten the food and used the O2 and the last days of any major attempt is garbage collecting so they can meet the guidelines or face large fines.
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interruptor
Jul 11, 2002, 6:54 PM
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Is that true? If so, it's great... I guess. But what about high altitude garbage??? Very few people that go to the top have the strength to carry their garbage down, least even bringing other peoples one!!!
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wildtrail
Jul 11, 2002, 7:08 PM
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duskershu,
No, no. Close it and allow clean-ups. Many organizations have had a hand in that in the past. Allow them to make their summit attempt, but the priority is to clean the garbage off Chomolungma! That is what I meant.
Clean it up!
[ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-07-11 12:09 ]
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dondiego
Jul 11, 2002, 7:17 PM
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Talk about Naive! I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but the people have survived in that area for thousands of years. Everest has been a tourist attraction for less than one hundred years. If nobody ever went there again, the people would still survive. They would just adapt like they did when tourism went to Everest. I agree that it should be cleaned up, but who is going to spend their time and money cleaning instead of climbing. I know that I wouldn't. We are discussing an impossibility anyway. The only thing that will close that mountain is war.
-Don Diego-
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topher
Jul 12, 2002, 10:59 PM
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want to here some thing funny, most people in third world countrys think that the western scositys way of life is crazy!!! we my have more power (and couloured pices of paper) but i think alot of them have more fun
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laplaya
Jul 12, 2002, 11:41 PM
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Wow, What an idea!!!!! How many ppl here think that banning (outdoor) climbing nation-wide in the US would be a smart thing to do in order to allow the Rock to "Re-cover"???
Personally, closing Everest has got to be the ABSOLUTE STUPIDIST IDEA I HAVE HEARD YET.
I am not here to say that it is not a mess, like most of you, I havent been there and dont know.
I am not to say that the mess doesnt matter, although, why should it matter to most of you? chances are alot of people that would jump on the eco-band wagon and push for it will never go there.
But what the hell of good do any of you think that this will do?!?!?!?!?!
NONE AT ALL!!!
The sherpas will no longer go up there if it is closed to tourist, and people that dont go up, wont bring anything down.
Nothing is de-composing or coming off of the Mt. on its own. I think the better sugestion is to hire trash colection. The "highest junk-yard" could easily become the area with the best paid trash collectors.
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dondiego
Jul 13, 2002, 2:07 AM
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Now I'm listening. I have never really had a great desire to go up Everest primarily because it has already been done before and if I am going up something that has already been climbed, I sure as hell am not going to pay a good years salary to do it. Now if a nature consciece company wants to pay people to trek up and down with trash, I will be the first in line. I am not in the Army for the money (obviously) but I wouldn't do it for free either. Show me the money!
-Don Diego-
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billcoe_
Jul 13, 2002, 3:54 AM
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Been there and agree 300 % with Gooch and folks who think like he does.
What have any of you who wish it to return to a "pristine state" personally done for any Sherpas?
What do you drive?
How much waste do you consume?
The Sherpas are a frugal people whom "recyle" everything and have had to do so for the hundreds of years since they have come over from Tibet. They dump the tourist s--- on the fields to grow crops. Go there and lay that bullslit out onto a Sherpa and see what he/she says. I will give you Natang Sherpas e-mail address, why don't you e-mail him and tell him you feel Namche should not have electricity and that the rivers should flow freely. He will give you an earful.
Turn off your own electricity, do not drive, recycle 100 % of everything you consume then we will talk. Sorry fiend - but your statement "I don't presume to play god with these people's lives." is false. That is what you are proposing. Furthermore, it would accomplish nothing except to ruin some gentle peoples lives. Sure they would survive: but until you go walk a mile in their shoes, you should not propose to so degrade their existance. Gooch is right, you are 110% wrong. You want to do something real productive and helpful? Don't drive for a year. Pedal your bike. Even when you go climbing.
Bill Coe
Seen it - done it - been there.
Just my $500.00 worth.
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moozer180
Jul 13, 2002, 5:12 AM
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Hello All,
Before I start into this let me first say that I have never been to Everest and seen all the trash. The original post started as a pretty good attempt to say we needed to help the enviroment.
As a biologist I can assure you that no life exist on Mt. Everest. It would be somewhat stunning to find life above 20,000 feet and in a freezing cold enviroment. If any life does in fact exist there I'm positive that it would be a single celled bacteria. Remember life needs three things, air, water, and food. All of these things become extremley hard to find on Everest.
The next question is bringing down the trash accumulated on the mountain. My response is to hell with that. Above 20,000 your body begins to shut down. The Sherpas have generations of natural selectivity to favor their bodies in the low oxygen content but I can assure you that they can't survive for to long at those altitudes. This makes a mass of oxygen a neccesity for climbing the mountain. When you expend extra energy hauling the trash, you are very much risking your life in doing so. Trash is not worth our lives. I believe that such a grand adventure is, but if you have to leave a little trash that isn't going to hurt anything anyways, then so be it.
So to summarize, if it doesn't hurt anything except the eco-maniacs egos then trash the place. People will still come because its the highest and always will be. People really have never gone to everest because of the beauty anyways, they go to say they were there and they sat on top of the world. If you want to go and die in an avalanche bringing down an oxygen bottle in a very un-glorious death then more power to you, but I have better things to do.
100 years ago climbing the mountain was impossible, maybe in another 100 years technology will have progressed to the point where it will be safe to clean the mountain. Until then, leave your trash and get down from on top of there!
Just as a side note, I do one day intend on climbing the mountain, and I can assure you. As I am coming down off the summit fighting for each and every step I am making, I won't feel the least bit upset about leaving those heavy bottles behind, or passing the dead frozen corpse to the left of me. And steping on the frozen hunk of s#$% will do nothing to take away my sense of accomplishment.
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eminem_imposter
Jul 13, 2002, 5:25 AM
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not to be rude or anything but i think by now just about everyone has seen this post, i mean you post it like daily, i see where your coming from but everything i hear about everest isnt bad (other than all the failed attempts and deaths and the like) but i have never heard about it being that screwed up. i've obviously never been there, i mean im only 14 but i still understand that shutting down everest would pretty much destroy what little economy the surrounding countries have. i think it would do more damage than good, maybe clean up the basecamps that can be reached by choppers and skiplanes but other than that i dont think its too big of a deal. just my 2 cents.
Steve
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wildtrail
Jul 14, 2002, 5:47 PM
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dondiego is right,
Sherpas were there for a long time before tourists.
laplaya,
It is not a stupid idea. It is probably one of the better ideas someone has come up with. There would be no real loss and an organization could be developed to clean the mountain up. That would be a fantastic idea. People and Sherpas could still climb, but the goal of the organization would be to clean it up. After clean up was complete, they could re-open the mountain, but with different regulations requiring expeditions to pack out what they bring in. Not a big deal. Hire a few extra Sherpas to pack loads out as items become consumed. Simple stuff. I don't think the original idea was to close it forever. At least that was not my orginal idea. Just long enough for a clean up to remove the air tanks from the South Col would be a great idea.
Steve
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beyond_gravity
Jul 14, 2002, 6:00 PM
Post #42 of 60
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Everest wont be shut down. And if Nepal shut it down then every one would just go from Tibet insted.
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wildtrail
Jul 14, 2002, 9:37 PM
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And China after that, but that isn't the point here. I still think temporarily shutting it down to outsiders, outside of paid Sherpas and an organization designed for clean up, would be a great idea. Shut it down, clean it up, then re-open it with the same rules the NPS asks of me anytime I venture into the mountains. Pack out your trash. What is so hard about that? For example, the Sherpas that are hired carry bottled oxygen up to specific locations. Empty ones are lighter. See what I mean?
Well, what happens in case of emergency or a storm and the stuff has to be left behind? Someone may ask that and it is a good question. My answer: That "clean up organization" I mentioned stays in place. For reasons such as that and clean ups scheduled to take care of such needs. Something like that anyway. I think everyone gets the picture.
Steve
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climb512
Jul 14, 2002, 10:56 PM
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I am the same side as gooch. shutting down everest is the lamest idea ive heard! as to greenspace's comment about the people surviving for a few years with no income. could you survive for a few years if you were told you couldnt work? should the next generation of people who want to climb be penalized for the past generations of pigs? i cant fathom the thoughts of the people who have climbed and just trashed the place. i wouldnt dream of leaving any trace behind.
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jds100
Jul 14, 2002, 11:20 PM
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I have a hard time believing that Moozer is serious with that position, so...
(I think it would be helpful if people who reply would take the time to read all the previous posts, so that the full scope of responses could be understood before they "contribute" to the thread.)
It's already been said, but here it is again: Who are you to assert that civilizations of the western world should impose some condescending "We know what's good for your country" action of shutting down a major part of the tourist industry for a small third-world country? Billcoe is right: if you want to help the Sherpas and their country, there are charities to which you can donate. Again, how would you feel if some outside authority came along and unilaterly shut down your crag or mountain? Now, ask some folks who've been suddenly down-sized out of their jobs, and find out how they feel about that sudden helpless event. There are probably perfectly justifiable reasons for those people losing their source of income, but it doesn't make it much easier to lose it. How can you really be so arrogant as to make such suggestions about another people and country?
I do believe that clean-up efforts could be effective, and should be funded as readily, perhaps moreso, as expeditions to get the 53rd Gynecologist, or the 67th real estate developer, or the 111th New York socialite to the summit. But, hey most of those kinds of summiteers are paying for it themselves. So, sponsors and charitable orgainizations could channel funds into clean-up efforts, and publicize those trips to help highlight the impact that less "conscious" expeditions are having.
I do hope that Moozer is bullshitting with that "Me first" attitude. That is classic "Ugly American", right there, and what I would wish the American Alpine Institute and other mountaineering orgainizations would specifically issue a statement against. Such people and their "achievements" should not be celebrated.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-07-14 20:48 ]
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wildtrail
Jul 15, 2002, 5:35 AM
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By the way Moozer, you may not be a great biologist then. Or, have not heard of it yet.
Well above 20,000 feet on Everest, found even as high as the South Col (26,000, I believe) is a species of spider. Not a tiny one either. They can be about as big as a large Wolf spider (maybe bigger). Also, there is a bird that thrives high on Everst as well. This was the reason that Anatoli Boukreev covered the faces of Scott Fischer and a female climber (the name escapes me) that died high on Everest in the tragic May 1996 incident. Partial reasons were out of respect, but these birds will "hollow" out and eat flesh. So there are two species that come to mind, and maybe the only, but life exists high on Everst. Besides, there is nothing wrong with cleaning that place up. Is there? Anker organized a large clean up. Why not keep doing it?
Steve
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apollodorus
Jul 15, 2002, 10:04 AM
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My guess is that local politics will shut down the entire Karakoram range in the near future, so K2 can be the test-bed for shutting Everest down.
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roopesh
Jul 17, 2002, 1:30 PM
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so many people have suggested their opinions. but only few have given unbiased opinions which consider all the aspects.
i have some questions (u don't have to answer to this, just answer yourselves)
imagine that,
- your young son/daughter climbs the steps (in your house) and shits there.
- then your teenage son/daughter go to the terrace for a party and mess it up, what are u going to do
- if someone likes the flower and climbs (also spoils) on the tree which has grown inside your compound
- u climb to the terrace, then while coming down, do you remove your shirt/trousers/etc because it is heavy
- do u leave your office/home unclean after the party
- do you close down and never visit/open your attic because it is dirty
- when you are out, someone or some animal or bird would've dirtied your portico/backyard/etc, do you ignore it
- if u alone can't clean up the mess at your place, then u leave it like that or will you employ someone to clean it up
- before cleaning etc (your place), do u consider whether, any organism survives in this condition ,,,
- do you just ignore the trash (at your place) and wait for someone (your spouse, dad, mom) to clean it / to frame rules and organizations to clean up the mess
i think i have conveyed my opinion
i don't know whether it is worth or 2 cents or two rupees, etc
[ This Message was edited by: roopesh on 2002-07-17 06:32 ]
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dondiego
Jul 17, 2002, 5:31 PM
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So many questions, so little time. I kinda got lost there so I'm just going to mark B for all of them.
-D D-
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wildtrail
Jul 17, 2002, 5:34 PM
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Roopish,
AMEN!
Steve
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