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gandolf
Jun 4, 2005, 5:49 AM
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Has anyone bought/used the Climb Axe cams that are sold by Pagan Gear? How do they stand up against the more popular models of cams like Friends or Camelots?
Thanks
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socialclimber
Jun 9, 2005, 11:17 AM
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In reply to: ... Climb Axe cams that are sold by Pagan Gear? How do they stand up against the more popular models of cams like Friends or Camelots? Thanks
You are comparing apples to oranges. The single stem Climb Axe cams look alot like the old model Trango Flex cam. If you look here,
http://www.rockempire.com/...ategory=cams#durango, you will find a similar cam. Bottom line is, any cam with UIAA approval should be safe. After that, you get what you pay for. I have the No. 1,2 & 4 Rock Empire robots and find them to be exelent value and well made.
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gandolf
Jun 13, 2005, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for the information. I'll check out the Rock Empire cams.
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korntera
Jun 14, 2005, 6:21 AM
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Although i have not used the cams I have played with them last time i went to climbaxe(pagangear.com) and my friend just bought 2 of them. Personally I would go with the robots, they are a bit more expensive but i like the smooth action and just nicer quality on them for almost the same price. If i remember correctly a few of the climbaxe cams have better range(in the smaller sizes) than the rock empires. The rock empires are $30 but go up to 34.95 or 40(for the large mo fo's)
-Travis
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sam_dude19
Jun 19, 2005, 5:14 AM
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I'm curious about the Climbaxe cams myself, as they are sooo cheap! I'm new to trad and looking for a cheap way to get into some active pro. I was thinking about buying a couple of the rigid stem-oldschool friend-lookin ones for 25$ each in the 2"-4" area. cuz im sure they'd get the job done, and a similar C4 is gonna be like 60$ each....
peace
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samuel
Jun 20, 2005, 1:31 PM
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In reply to: ... Bottom line is, any cam with UIAA approval should be safe. After that, you get what you pay for. I have the No. 1,2 & 4 Rock Empire robots and find them to be exelent value and well made.
The UIAA standard specifies a strengh requirement of atleast 5kN.
Some has failed as low as a few kN above that, while others held at about 14kN in a Climbing article recently.
5 kN is not a lot.
(edited for quoting mistake)
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vanman2004
Jun 21, 2005, 5:38 AM
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In reply to: I'm curious about the Climbaxe cams myself, as they are sooo cheap! I'm new to trad and looking for a cheap way to get into some active pro. I was thinking about buying a couple of the rigid stem-oldschool friend-lookin ones for 25$ each in the 2"-4" area. cuz im sure they'd get the job done, and a similar C4 is gonna be like 60$ each.... peace
No way dude... save up for really good gear, and I PROMISE you'll be happy you did.
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socialclimber
Jun 21, 2005, 6:20 AM
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In reply to: [quote="socialclimber ... Bottom line is, any cam with UIAA approval should be safe. After that, you get what you pay for. I have the No. 1,2 & 4 Rock Empire robots and find them to be exelent value and well made.
The UIAA standard specifies a strengh requirement of atleast 5kN.
Some has failed as low as a few kN above that, while others held at about 14kN in a Climbing article recently.
5 kN is not a lot.
***************************************************
Do you have a link for that article? It would be interesting to read. I would say 5kn usually relates to gear that is intended for aid. If a larger cam is rated for 10kn, it shouldn't fail below 10kn of applied force in controlled conditions. What was the rating of the cams that failed? 1kn is equal to approximatly 1000kg. If a piece fails with a force 5kn applied, thats 5oookg. What does it take for a climber to generate that much force? In most cases the rock will fail before a piece of pro and we can't rate the rock.
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climbinginchico
Jun 21, 2005, 6:54 AM
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5kn is not 5000 kg. It is 5000 Newtons. Roughly equivalent to 225 lb per Kn, if my math is correct. So, that's what? 1125 lb or so?
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socialclimber
Jun 21, 2005, 8:02 AM
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In reply to: 5kn is not 5000 kg. It is 5000 Newtons.
I know the difference betwen kg an kn. The reason I assumed 1kn is about equilivant to 1000kg of force is because I have an old Kong-Bonaiti classic "D" shape carabiner that gives its ratings in kg. 2300kg along it's length. My BD carabiners are rated at 25kn along it's length. Dispite the difference in age and brands, the numbers are comparable. Looks like I was out by a "0" :oops:
There are 2.2 pounds to a kg. So 2300 kg = 5060 lb.
divide by 225 lb to get Kn, = 22.5kn
2300kg= 22.5kn. (give or take.)
100kg=1kn
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samuel
Jun 21, 2005, 9:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ... Bottom line is, any cam with UIAA approval should be safe. After that, you get what you pay for. I have the No. 1,2 & 4 Rock Empire robots and find them to be exelent value and well made. The UIAA standard specifies a strengh requirement of atleast 5kN. Some has failed as low as a few kN above that, while others held at about 14kN in a Climbing article recently. 5 kN is not a lot. Do you have a link for that article? It would be interesting to read. I would say 5kn usually relates to gear that is intended for aid. If a larger cam is rated for 10kn, it shouldn't fail below 10kn of applied force in controlled conditions. What was the rating of the cams that failed? 1kn is equal to approximatly 1000kg. If a piece fails with a force 5kn applied, thats 5oookg. What does it take for a climber to generate that much force? In most cases the rock will fail before a piece of pro and we can't rate the rock.
Since it was in the magazine Climbing I think you will have to buy it.
It was the one with all the testing of the new cams.
This is an outline of the UIAA/EN specification:
http://www.uiaa.ch/...rictionalAnchors.pdf
Just to repeat an important point: 5kN translates to about 500kg.
Most falls of any magnitude will generate more force than that on the last runner.
Beal testing: http://www.impact-force.info/anglais/impact4.html#
I'm not saying anything about the safety of the brands in question, just commenting on how "safe" the UIAA marking makes the cams.
On the other hand, "The manufacturer has to stamp on the Frictional Anchor the minimum load in kN, he guarantees."
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fear
Jun 21, 2005, 7:23 PM
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The cams that crumbled at the low KN in the test were the "Camp" cheapo cams. Remember that a shitty older Cassin cam crumbled last year at the Gunks killing a climber on "Boston" after a SHORT fall.
Camalots aren't the lightest but there's a reason there....
Don't buy crap.
-Fear
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caughtinside
Jun 21, 2005, 8:47 PM
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I just looked at a picture of these cams on the pagangear website.
I must say, they look identical to the DMM cams which just went out of production.
My guess is that when DMM redesigned their cams, they wanted to make a little money off their old manufacturing set up, and sold it to climb axe. Either that, or they continue to produce them in the same factory under a different name.
Differences I noticed: The slings aren't color coded, the slings aren't the doubled sling, and the anodization looks like it's color coded differently from the DMM cams I have.
I can't say for sure whether they are the older model DMM cams just from looking at the website. This would be worth investigating though, since they're such a great deal. $30 cams that come with a keylock biner.
You might think of looking at the DMM cam reviews on this site. If they are in fact the DMMs, they are WAY better than the robots. I own DMMs and have climbed on robots. Both work, but the DMMs are smoother and easier to plug.
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caughtinside
Jun 21, 2005, 8:48 PM
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I just looked at a picture of these cams on the pagangear website.
I must say, they look identical to the DMM cams which just went out of production.
My guess is that when DMM redesigned their cams, they wanted to make a little money off their old manufacturing set up, and sold it to climb axe. Either that, or they continue to produce them in the same factory under a different name.
Differences I noticed: The slings aren't color coded, the slings aren't the doubled sling, and the anodization looks like it's color coded differently from the DMM cams I have.
I can't say for sure whether they are the older model DMM cams just from looking at the website. This would be worth investigating though, since they're such a great deal. $30 cams that come with a keylock biner.
You might think of looking at the DMM cam reviews on this site. If they are in fact the DMMs, they are WAY better than the robots. I own DMMs and have climbed on robots. Both work, but the DMMs are smoother and easier to plug.
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thrillseeker05
Jun 21, 2005, 9:34 PM
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Fear is a bad thing to spread.
if ONE cam came out you shouldnt die. a cam didnt kill a climber. the impact from a fall did. if you are looking for reasons why, then you would have to examine, was the cam in fault, was it placed right, what happend? no one knows this.
so before you go and preach widespread panic. think about it.
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socialclimber
Jun 22, 2005, 6:50 AM
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In reply to: ... a cam didnt kill a climber. the impact from a fall did. if you are looking for reasons why, then you would have to examine, was the cam in fault, was it placed right, what happend? no one knows this....
In the case of the Gunks accident, The cam failed big time and it did appear to be gear failure rather than operator error. There is a long and interesting thread on this site, including pix of the cam. It's worth reading. As I said in my first post on this thread, you do get what you pay for
http://www.rockclimbing.com/....php?p=985277#985277
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raindog1
Jun 24, 2005, 7:08 AM
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I would just like to state that DMM only produce cams for DMM and Wild Country.
DMM have no commercial association or involvement with Climb Axe or Pagan Gear.
Regards
Simon Marsh
DMM International
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gunksgoer
Jun 24, 2005, 12:06 PM
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Why not spend another 10$ and upgrade to forged friends? its not much at all, and it gets you alot of quality.
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landgolier
Jun 24, 2005, 1:15 PM
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I too spent a lot of time squinting at the pics of the bootleg DMMs on pagan gear trying to figure out if they were really DMMs. Then I looked at the ranges...totally different. D'oh!
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