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flowerpowerlover
Jul 4, 2005, 6:53 AM
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so, about a month and a half ago, i pretty much dropped out of normal life and decided to become a climbing bum, that lasted for about 2wks due to almost non stop bouldering, no food and little sleep. i found my tendons begin to feel like brittle rubber bands, so i havent climbed since late may...
heres the advice:
i read as much as i could about recovery. let me 1st say that time is the #1 tool, but i read alot about drugs that could be taken to assist. here is the list of supplements that i am on, and may i say, have helped tons!
1. Glucosamine - 2000mg
2. Bromelain - 1000mg
3. Flax Seed Oil - 2000mg
4. Calcium - 1200mg
taking all of these have really helped. about a month ago, it seriously hurt just thinking about pulling, now i am not able to stop thinking about climbing. I can not wait for the winter...
check those supplements out for yourselves, the bromelain seemed to kick things to the next level for me, i recently began with the flax seed, time will tell. :)
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salamanizer
Jul 5, 2005, 5:29 AM
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You should put more emphisis on proper rest for recovery than bullshit homeopathic remedys. Not saying that I'm an expert but I've been to several tendon and ligement specialists for injurys and none have mentioned any of that B.S. I say, see a specialist. If not, at least take some anti-inflamitory like ibuprofrin and give the injury plenty of time to heal. Thats what the doc's told me. Physical therapy doesn't hurt either.
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reno
Jul 5, 2005, 5:49 AM
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In reply to: . . . . here is the list of supplements that i am on, and may i say, have helped tons! 1. Glucosamine - 2000mg 2. Bromelain - 1000mg 3. Flax Seed Oil - 2000mg 4. Calcium - 1200mg taking all of these have really helped.
How do you know it was the things you mention, and not just time and the natural healing process?
Flax seed oil...??
Yeah, that's pretty common in the body.
:roll:
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flowerpowerlover
Jul 5, 2005, 5:54 AM
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why is it that i cannot post something w/o some know it all, smearing my thread? I DID SAY THAT REST IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!!! I also talked with a specialist...they validated all of the stuff that i am taking.
why, i mean seriously...why post something like that? i offered my experience with my injury hoping only that it could potentially help another climber.
btw, i took ibuprofen only for about a week, it seemed to help a little, but after adding the rest of these drugs that i listed my fingers really began to feel better, hence me saying that in the thread.
there are plenty of threads that have people saying to rest and get a specialists, this thread was meant to be different, to list some drugs that could potentially accelerate your recovery. not to mention, they are good for your joints anyway.
sorry for the rambling, i am just sick of people smearing each other and jacking threads. lets just get along, be happy that we all climb and help each other when we can...:)
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flowerpowerlover
Jul 5, 2005, 5:56 AM
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.double post
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flowerpowerlover
Jul 5, 2005, 6:01 AM
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obviously there is no possible way to tell. but all i know is that b4 i began to take these things my fingers felt as though they were getting worse, it was only after taking these, in conjunction with the rest that the fingers are beginning to feel better.
i never said that these are a cure all, and i dont know why people are assuming that i meant it that way, i am only offering a recipe that helped me, if you dont want to accept my advice, fine thats your decision.
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flowerpowerlover
Jul 5, 2005, 6:03 AM
Post #7 of 26
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btw, the reason that i take flax seed oil is that it contains omega 3 fatty acids...
yeah, those are in the body...
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arjunrattan
Jul 5, 2005, 1:00 PM
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hmm i have tendon problems.in my right wrist. i think the problem is called triangular fibocartiledge tear. I was wondering if anyone has ever tried EMU oil?? i hear its pretty good.
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troy_creamer
Jul 5, 2005, 2:03 PM
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I had a fellow climber also recommend Glucosamine - 2000mg
for my elbow and finger soreness. I took the product and it really seemed to help. I agree rest is always good, but I think vitamins can really help. I saw Glucosamine also work for a friend when he was having some persistent elbow pain during climbing. He said once he started taking the supplements his pain subsided, and I saw this first hand in his climbing. I know for him it was never a rest issue, since he trains only 1-2 times a week. Nutrition is very important in any sport, and can make a big difference in performance. I don't see why taking some extra vitamins and minerals would be a bad thing. It might not work for everyone, but I am willing to try anything to get me back to full climbing strength. :D
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troy_creamer
Jul 5, 2005, 2:09 PM
Post #10 of 26
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I had a fellow climber also recommend Glucosamine - 2000mg
for my elbow and finger soreness. I took the product and it really seemed to help. I agree rest is always good, but I think vitamins can really help. I saw Glucosamine also work for a friend when he was having some persistent elbow pain during climbing. He said once he started taking the supplements his pain subsided, and I saw this first hand in his climbing. I know for him it was never a rest issue, since he trains only 1-2 times a week. Nutrition is very important in any sport, and can make a big difference in performance. I don't see why taking some extra vitamins and minerals would be a bad thing. It might not work for everyone, but I am willing to try anything to get me back to full climbing strength.
:D
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moonshine505
Jul 5, 2005, 3:51 PM
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for non-vascular tissue health/maintanance, my physician friends tell me the only thing that has been "proven" effective are high (~1800mg) doses of glucosamine/condroiten mixed. Don't have a clue about the flax oil, and I've never heard of the other thing you list. So, maybe those 2 fall into the "bullshit homeopathic remedy" category, but the glucosamine/chondroiten seems to be the real deal.
Of course, virtually everyone in the world thinks that vitamin C helps immune system health, yet if you read some recent clinical studies, it apparently doesn't do jack. Why does this matter? Here's my position...if you think taking vitamin C is going to help you stay healthy, then by all means, take vitamin c. If you think that taking all that stuff for your joints is going to help, then by all means take it. You would be no different than the millions of osteoarthritis sufferers who take it for the same reason. Placebo or not, it's popular stuff that at least works for SOME people. Different strokes for different folks.
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jt512
Jul 5, 2005, 8:22 PM
Post #12 of 26
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In reply to: In reply to: . . . . here is the list of supplements that i am on, and may i say, have helped tons! 1. Glucosamine - 2000mg 2. Bromelain - 1000mg 3. Flax Seed Oil - 2000mg 4. Calcium - 1200mg taking all of these have really helped. How do you know it was the things you mention, and not just time and the natural healing process? Flax seed oil...?? Yeah, that's pretty common in the body. :roll:
Alpha linolenic acid. Actually, it is, or should be, common in the diet. It won't do shit for your tendons, of course, but it is an essential fatty acid.
-Jay
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james_climber
Jul 5, 2005, 8:59 PM
Post #13 of 26
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warm good an then climb , rest , and drink lots of water during and after climbing
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polishbob
Jul 6, 2005, 11:09 PM
Post #14 of 26
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In reply to: You should put more emphisis on proper rest for recovery than s--- homeopathic remedys. Not saying that I'm an expert but I've been to several tendon and ligement specialists for injurys and none have mentioned any of that B.S. I say, see a specialist. If not, at least take some anti-inflamitory like ibuprofrin and give the injury plenty of time to heal. Thats what the doc's told me. Physical therapy doesn't hurt either. |
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a_guy_named_smith
Jul 6, 2005, 11:20 PM
Post #15 of 26
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In reply to: You should put more emphisis on proper rest for recovery than s--- homeopathic remedys. Not saying that I'm an expert but I've been to several tendon and ligement specialists for injurys and none have mentioned any of that B.S. I say, see a specialist. If not, at least take some anti-inflamitory like ibuprofrin and give the injury plenty of time to heal. Thats what the doc's told me. Physical therapy doesn't hurt either.
um just so you know
the person who said this is not homeopathy is dead one
homeopathy is complete and utter quackery based on some BS cooked up in the 19th century. it makes for fun study of how people believe pseudo scientific ideas.
here is a source that explains it in some detail
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
which is different from supplements whose usefulness depends on the individual supplement
and btw physical therapy can really f'ing hurt
especially when you are working away old scar tissue
yikes
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jt512
Jul 6, 2005, 11:42 PM
Post #16 of 26
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In reply to: they are suplements, which for real will cut down on your recovery.
If you use them in lieu of an effective regimen, then your statement above is probably true.
-Jay
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polishbob
Jul 7, 2005, 4:13 AM
Post #17 of 26
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In reply to: In reply to: they are suplements, which for real will cut down on your recovery. If you use them in lieu of an effective regimen, then your statement above is probably true. -Jay
there are 3 most important steps in any athletic training:
#1. proper conditioning.
for some reason climbers approach this sport, like physiology doesn't exist. like with any sport you develop some muscles and muscle groups and under develop others. majority of shoulder injuries i treated on climbers are due to a simple fact of muscle imbalances. too tight and strong latissimus dorsi, too weak rhomboids. add weak pectoralis and you are ready for regular "painful arc"(superspinatous impingement) injury. that's just an example. same with forearms- too tight and strong flexors and too weak extensors. i mean who needs 4-6 weeks a year of some basic weight lifting before the season, right?(if you haven't noticed i am just being sarcastic here). also what's your basic aerobic fitness? after all isn't it blood what transport oxygen and nutrients into the muscle and removes waste (along with lymph)?
#2 rest and recovery
#3 proper nutrition
the last two tie together nicely. you can sit on your ass and do nothing for days and still be sore after hard day of climbing. that's why nutrition is so important. climbing is as advanced on this subject as 19th century industrial revolution in England. majority of climbers knows nothing about nutrition, supplements, hydration and general fitness. even worst- most of so called "specialists" are just clueless morons. medicine applied to professional level athletes is more foul then medieval tortures. because how do you explain all these shoulder, back and ankle surgeries? I can give you countless names of athletes, who were totally screwed up by "the best specialists" read a story about Kurt Marsh from Oakland raiders.
so it's a very good thing, that people educate themselves on training and nutrition. simple dietary supplements can and will decrease your body's inflammatory response- cutting down on your recovery time. i don't have really time to sit here and lecture you an fibroblasts and fibroclasts- you can open Totora's "Principles of Basic Anatomy and Physiology" and learn this stuff.
just remember - next time you feel pain it's not because you have NASID's deficiency in your blood stream.
sincerely- robert rogoz (aka polishbob) Bellingham, WA
p.s. I think I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about since a lot of people I treat at my office include so called pro athletes, general public and many health care professionals- with neurosurgeons included
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powertrain
Jul 7, 2005, 4:36 AM
Post #18 of 26
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Posts: 5
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Please don't judge me for my 'alternative medicine' suggestion, but along with good nutrition, rest, and proper training, acupuncture can save your climbing career. It is important to have the acupuncturist attach electrodes to the acupuncture needles and have electricity flow between two or more needles, traversing the injured area. It has been proven that electrical impulse, naturally or mechanically applied, can stimulate blood flow, and blood flow aids the healing process.
I have had this done on multiple finger injuries. It took about six treatments (which were spread out over a few weeks so rest was a contributing factor). The injuries that I had acupuncture treatments on healed more rapidly that previous injuries.
If you have health insurance it is usually completely covered under the 'alternative medicine' category,; most middle of the road insurance plans cover it
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polishbob
Jul 7, 2005, 4:59 AM
Post #19 of 26
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In reply to: Please don't judge me for my 'alternative medicine'
“Alternative medicine”- alternative to what? The butchery of AMA and side effect ridden pharmaceutical industry? Let’s get real here, this is a part of an article by Stewart Taws:
“"In spite of the increasing surgical rates, there has been no evidence of a corresponding decrease in the rates of disability due to low back problems. Relatively high rates of imaging studies, referrals and surgery within the health care system indicates premature or otherwise inappropriate use of these interventions." (Cherkin, 1996)
"Because only a small fraction of low back pain patients present with the 'red flags,' frequent use of diagnostic tests is not necessary. The likelihood that a diagnostic test is ordered depends more on the specialty of the provider (Carey, 1985; Cherkin, 1994b), the proximity of radiographic equipment (Hillman, 1990), and the characteristics of the health care system (Carey 1995) than on the clinical presentation of the patient. Similarly, variations in rates of lumbar surgery reflect differences in the availability of surgeons rather than differences in patient need." (Cherkin, 1994b)
The Saddest Words You Will Ever Hear
o "The doctor says I've got a degenerating disc condition and wants to operate." (discectomy)
o "The doctor says I have a herniated/ruptured disc between L4/L5 and wants to operate."
o "The doctor says I've got a spinal stenosis/facet syndrome and wants to operate." (fusion)
o "The doctor says I've got a pinched nerve and wants to operate." (laminectomy)
It has been my experience that herniated disc material is rarely responsible for pain or any other neurological symptom. It is so rare that, for all practical purposes, it does not exist.
This is a minority opinion, but I am not alone. Dr. Hubert Rosomoff is a well known neurosurgeon and department chairman at the University of Miami. Through his years of surgery he has come the conclusion that herniated, bulging, slipped or degenerating discs have no relationship to the pain experienced. He printed his findings in a medical paper titled: "Do Herniated Discs Produce Pain?" published in Advances in Pain Research and Therapy, (edited by Fields, Dubner, Cervero, Jones, et al, 1985). He based his conclusions on observed inconsistencies and the logical facts of neurological pathophysiology. Continued compression of a nerve will cause it to stop transmitting pain messages after a short time. The result is numbness! How could the herniation then cause continuing pain?”
The effects of the needles on the tissue has very little to do with direct blood flow increase to the area. The effect has to do with change of the input into your nervous system. Up to few years ago the nervous system was compared to telephone lines just sending signals back and forth. It is not. Nervous system listens to the signals, analyzes them and adapts. It starts within 12 hours of the injury and it will remodel itself within 3-6 weeks.
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Moose2994
Aug 6, 2009, 9:08 PM
Post #20 of 26
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ive read about this and am also doing this. MY tendons are sore not torn or anything like that. but from what ive read this stuff can also be used as a preventitive.
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billcoe_
Aug 20, 2009, 4:37 AM
Post #21 of 26
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Posts: 4694
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[quote "polishbob"]there are 3 most important steps in any athletic training:
#1. proper conditioning.
for some reason climbers approach this sport, like physiology doesn't exist. like with any sport you develop some muscles and muscle groups and under develop others. majority of shoulder injuries i treated on climbers are due to a simple fact of muscle imbalances. too tight and strong latissimus dorsi, too weak rhomboids. add weak pectoralis and you are ready for regular "painful arc"(superspinatous impingement) injury. that's just an example. same with forearms- too tight and strong flexors and too weak extensors. i mean who needs 4-6 weeks a year of some basic weight lifting before the season, right?(if you haven't noticed i am just being sarcastic here). also what's your basic aerobic fitness? after all isn't it blood what transport oxygen and nutrients into the muscle and removes waste (along with lymph)?
#2 rest and recovery
#3 proper nutrition
the last two tie together nicely. you can sit on your ass and do nothing for days and still be sore after hard day of climbing. that's why nutrition is so important. climbing is as advanced on this subject as 19th century industrial revolution in England. majority of climbers knows nothing about nutrition, supplements, hydration and general fitness. even worst- most of so called "specialists" are just clueless morons. medicine applied to professional level athletes is more foul then medieval tortures. because how do you explain all these shoulder, back and ankle surgeries? I can give you countless names of athletes, who were totally screwed up by "the best specialists" read a story about Kurt Marsh from Oakland raiders.
so it's a very good thing, that people educate themselves on training and nutrition. simple dietary supplements can and will decrease your body's inflammatory response- cutting down on your recovery time. i don't have really time to sit here and lecture you an fibroblasts and fibroclasts- you can open Totora's "Principles of Basic Anatomy and Physiology" and learn this stuff.
just remember - next time you feel pain it's not because you have NASID's deficiency in your blood stream.
sincerely- robert rogoz (aka polishbob) Bellingham, WA
p.s. I think I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about since a lot of people I treat at my office include so called pro athletes, general public and many health care professionals- with neurosurgeons included[/quote]
Nice post.
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TomUrquhart
Aug 20, 2009, 6:43 PM
Post #22 of 26
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Registered: Aug 17, 2009
Posts: 2
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[quote "polishbob"][quote]Please don't judge me for my 'alternative medicine' [/quote]
“Alternative medicine”- alternative to what? The butchery of AMA and side effect ridden pharmaceutical industry? Let’s get real here, this is a part of an article by Stewart Taws:
“"In spite of the increasing surgical rates, there has been no evidence of a corresponding decrease in the rates of disability due to low back problems. Relatively high rates of imaging studies, referrals and surgery within the health care system indicates premature or otherwise inappropriate use of these interventions." (Cherkin, 1996)
"Because only a small fraction of low back pain patients present with the 'red flags,' frequent use of diagnostic tests is not necessary. The likelihood that a diagnostic test is ordered depends more on the specialty of the provider (Carey, 1985; Cherkin, 1994b), the proximity of radiographic equipment (Hillman, 1990), and the characteristics of the health care system (Carey 1995) than on the clinical presentation of the patient. Similarly, variations in rates of lumbar surgery reflect differences in the availability of surgeons rather than differences in patient need." (Cherkin, 1994b)
The Saddest Words You Will Ever Hear
o "The doctor says I've got a degenerating disc condition and wants to operate." (discectomy)
o "The doctor says I have a herniated/ruptured disc between L4/L5 and wants to operate."
o "The doctor says I've got a spinal stenosis/facet syndrome and wants to operate." (fusion)
o "The doctor says I've got a pinched nerve and wants to operate." (laminectomy)
It has been my experience that herniated disc material is rarely responsible for pain or any other neurological symptom. It is so rare that, for all practical purposes, it does not exist.
This is a minority opinion, but I am not alone. Dr. Hubert Rosomoff is a well known neurosurgeon and department chairman at the University of Miami. Through his years of surgery he has come the conclusion that herniated, bulging, slipped or degenerating discs have no relationship to the pain experienced. He printed his findings in a medical paper titled: "Do Herniated Discs Produce Pain?" published in Advances in Pain Research and Therapy, (edited by Fields, Dubner, Cervero, Jones, et al, 1985). He based his conclusions on observed inconsistencies and the logical facts of neurological pathophysiology. Continued compression of a nerve will cause it to stop transmitting pain messages after a short time. The result is numbness! How could the herniation then cause continuing pain?”
The effects of the needles on the tissue has very little to do with direct blood flow increase to the area. The effect has to do with change of the input into your nervous system. Up to few years ago the nervous system was compared to telephone lines just sending signals back and forth. It is not. Nervous system listens to the signals, analyzes them and adapts. It starts within 12 hours of the injury and it will remodel itself within 3-6 weeks.[/quote]
Anyone with pain resulting from a herniated disk should go visit their doctor and be referred to a specialist. and Skip over Bob's post above. having woken up from a discectomy and fusion with Zero pain, after spending 6 weeks unable to see or think or talk through the pain I was experiencing, I'd have to say it's worth a try if a specialist says so.
I wonder if Bob is a chiropractor and got his license after a 1 month internet course.
QuackTastic!
He's quoting stuff from 24 and 14 years ago. Things change, people learn, procedures improve.
I am in the medical "industry" myself. I see advances every single day.
Bob, do you breed your own leaches or do you get them from a reputable pharma. leach breeder?
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onceahardman
Aug 20, 2009, 10:54 PM
Post #23 of 26
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Posts: 2493
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Well, Tom, I have a couple quick things to say...
First, leeches (correct spelling) have a solid place in "mainstream" medicine, for re-attached avulsed extremities, with poor perfusion. Maggots, too, in wound care, for removal of necrotic tissue.
I have treated many herniated disks, both pre- and post-operatively. The results of surgery are less than stellar. The percentage of people who return to their former level of physical activity following spinal fusion is pretty small. Microdiscectomy and laminectomy numbers are somewhat better, but still probably top out at about 70% successful from the patient's perspective (rather than the surgeon's perspective).
I personally would never consider a spinal surgery unless I had CONSTANT (very important) symptoms below the knee (or elbow for a c-spine injury).
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TomUrquhart
Aug 20, 2009, 11:20 PM
Post #24 of 26
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Yup, True that on the leeches and maggots. I was clearly being a bit silly. ( it's spelled differently where I come from) (so is colour)
my neck surgery was successful in completely removing my CONSTANT level 9.9 pain, but having a couple of bones fused means I have less mobility. A trade I had to make. it took me a month to make that decision, it was way beyond steroid help or any other non surgical intervention.
It's not for everyone.
The point of my post was: This Forum is no substitute for qualified medical advice.
I think it's irresponsible for anyone to put forth as gospel any medical advice on an internet forum. Even more irresponsible for someone to blindly take that advice and run with it.
Go see a qualified professional.
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ryanb
Aug 20, 2009, 11:39 PM
Post #25 of 26
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Posts: 832
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salamanizer wrote: You should put more emphisis on proper rest for recovery than bullshit homeopathic remedys. Not saying that I'm an expert but I've been to several tendon and ligement specialists for injurys and none have mentioned any of that B.S. I say, see a specialist. If not, at least take some anti-inflamitory like ibuprofrin and give the injury plenty of time to heal. Thats what the doc's told me. Physical therapy doesn't hurt either.
These aren't homeopathic remedies. Look up the word homeopathy it is a very specific kind of pure bs.
These are plain old supplements which means they may or not be bs. I've had good experiences with glucosamine and flax seed oil is pretty widely regarded as good for you, no idea on the rest.
(This post was edited by ryanb on Aug 20, 2009, 11:39 PM)
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