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grading question
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cosmin


Jul 10, 2005, 4:23 PM
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grading question
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I've done a route today (second ascent) and am a bit at loss about how to grade it, as the FA guys are, so am quizzing you on how would you grade it.

Single pitch, 3/4 aid 1/4 free. The free section is the final one and would be a mid 5.10 (protection: one bolt and two spaced pegs). The aid section is the tricky bit: 85% of the moves are on skyhooks and no1 nuts (volcanic rock too frail for copperheads) slightly overhanging. Half of the skyhook placements would rip under bodyweight and every repeat of the route would be harder. Though I never climbed one (but by reading the description) it looked like and A4+ route BUT the route has bolts -in the aid section- every 2m so ALL falls there are safe!

Without using the bolts for protection (haven't used them for advance) one would need to runout about 20m from the deck to the first decent placement that would hold a fall.... (and the 'deck' is a 0.5m wide ledge above a scree slope)
So....

Thanks,
Cosmin


vegastradguy


Jul 10, 2005, 4:39 PM
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Single pitch, 3/4 aid 1/4 free. The free section is the final one and would be a mid 5.10 (protection: one bolt and two spaced pegs). The aid section is the tricky bit: 85% of the moves are on skyhooks and no1 nuts (volcanic rock too frail for copperheads) slightly overhanging. Half of the skyhook placements would rip under bodyweight and every repeat of the route would be harder. Though I never climbed one it looked like and A4+ route BUT the route has bolts -in the aid section-every 2m so ALL falls there are safe!

so, you've got a bolt ladder with the bolts 6' apart for 3/4 of a pitch and then 1/4 of a pitch of 5.10?

(question: how can there be bolts every 2m and 85% of the moves be on skyhooks?)

unless you need to hook in between each bolt to make the reach (and that seems unlikely...but i'm no aid expert)...it's A0. If you need to hook in between bolts (then that would be 50% of the moves, since theres no way you would need to hook more than once to get to the next bolt)...i dunno. A1 maybe- since you're not going to fall more than 6' if you blow a hook...


cosmin


Jul 10, 2005, 4:50 PM
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The route has been climbed without using the bolts for advance but only for protection.

I took two falls - without the bolts i would have been dead because for the entire lenght of the aid section there is no room for no piece of pro (peg or something else) that would hold a fall. Using the bolts for advance would almost be 'French free' so that's not my dilema...

I don't have the guts to climb the route without clipping the rope in the bolts but saw no funn in putting the aiders in them either. Plus they were there already...


Hope this makes my post a bit more clear... (I also edited the original post now)

Cheers,
Cosmin


Partner j_ung


Jul 10, 2005, 4:54 PM
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You expect that every party after you will eschew the bolts for all but protection? Is this in a gym? :lol:


cosmin


Jul 10, 2005, 5:01 PM
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You expect that every party after you will eschew the bolts for all but protection? Is this in a gym? :lol:

I didn't put up the route - just climb it this way. That would be for the FA team to explain not me.

For the aid i've done so far i always used the pro i placed but i never done aid harder than A3. The moves on this one were way harder but with very safe protection - never climbed a route like this before and was wondering how/if it can be graded....

PS - no gym. volcanic rock in eastern europe :twisted:


Partner euroford


Jul 10, 2005, 6:14 PM
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if every almost every single move is capable of holding a fall, its a1. if there are many moves that won't hold a fall, but enough bolts that any fall would be a safe one than i'd say its A2.


caughtinside


Jul 10, 2005, 6:22 PM
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I don't think it's possible to do an A4+ move 1 meter above a bolt.

The same principle applies to free climbing. Sure, you can make a 5.8 into a 5.12 by skipping 1/2 the holds, but you've still climbed a 5.8. But contrived it into a 5.12.


vegastradguy


Jul 10, 2005, 6:28 PM
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The route has been climbed without using the bolts for advance but only for protection.

well, i admire that you would climb the route without bolts...but, if the FA actually intended for the route to be climbed without the bolts, then the bolts would not have been placed- in which case, it probably would be on the high end of the aid scale. however, with the bolts there...

my personal opinion- you've climbed a 5.10 A1 the hard way.


guangzhou


Jul 10, 2005, 6:45 PM
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Cosmin,

If you are using the American grading system for aid, then this route sounds like A0 or A1. Of course I haven't been there.

Here is my reasonning;

You said the route was one pitch long and it has several bolts. Once hose bolts are clilpped, regardless of whether or not they are used for progress, they reduce the risk of the route. By reducing the risk, you drop the aid rading.

The exception would be if, the last piece that will hold a fall is below the halfway point of the pitch. Anotherwords, if you fell from high on the route with all the availaible pro clipped, you would still hit the ground or a large ledge.

As for the 5.10 section: is it aid climbable, if so, the you route woudn't get a free rating per say. If you have to free climb it, then you need to add a 5.10 mandatory free climbing clause to the rating.

To be honest, I have only done one A4 route "Invissible Airwaves" at looking Glass. I can't give you an honest accurate rating on the line unless I see it and climb it.

For now, I would say A1.

Look foward to having you bvack in China this fall. Time to put up soe great lines.

Eman


kriso9tails


Jul 10, 2005, 7:34 PM
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I've got a solution: just free the whole thing.

If you need mutant powers to accomplish this, then if I've learned from comic books it's that a bite from a radioactive mokey would do you a world of good.


cosmin


Jul 10, 2005, 7:48 PM
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Thank you for your answers. Some of them I found helpful - some entertaining. My expertise in aid climbing is rather thin and using the US grading system is a new business for me.

One conclusion I can draw (and I hope is correct) is that in the US aid grading the empashis is on the commitment factor rather than on the difficulty of the hardest move.

Cheers again,
Cosmin


P.S. Anyone got a radioactive monkey? Looking fora bite to help me
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free the whole thing.


Partner euroford


Jul 11, 2005, 11:28 AM
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One conclusion I can draw (and I hope is correct) is that in the US aid grading the empashis is on the commitment factor rather than on the difficulty of the hardest move.

i'm not sure i understand exacly what you mean by this. but yes, the emphasis is on commitment, ergo, risk. even if its the worlds hardest reachy topstep aid move onto a bomber camalot, its still A1.

and even if you your going for a 30 foot wipper, if its a clean air fall caught by a bomber [camalot, bolt, nut, whatever] piece it can't be harder than A2.

what confuses me is A3. i don't really see where it fits in between easy aid, A1 & A2 and hard aid, A4 & A5.

is it like casual hard aid or something? :)


guangzhou


Jul 12, 2005, 2:05 AM
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When will you be back in Guangzhou


cosmin


Jul 12, 2005, 2:15 AM
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I emailed you just now.


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