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euroford
Jul 13, 2005, 8:41 PM
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a quick question as i'm working on building my wall rack:
how many quickdraws & trad draws would be a good number to aim for generally speaking on a wall rack? obviously it varies depending on fixed vs. not and nuts vs. cams used, but on my last couple of climbs i was running pretty low so i'm going to get some more.
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dangle
Jul 13, 2005, 10:51 PM
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Hey euro,
since friction doesn't add (it multiplies) I carry lots of sling material. Its relatively light. But I generally DON'T carry draws. I carry loops of 9/16" about 10" long with some other sizes thrown in.
When I was nailing I would carry a bunch of short 1/2" tie offs AND a seperate bunch of longer ones so that I could secure the eye of the piton to the rope without leverage.
Saving biners is critical so I'll often clip my aider right to an eye or sling (adding the length of a biner to my height) and then slip through a sling if I want pro but with only one biner, sort of constructing a draw without the upper biner.
An exception is wires. I don't like nylon on wires, but I'll still clip the aider right to it I'll just add a freebie ABOVE it so I can clip in as I pass it.
I carry lots of shoulder slings too.
Most beginner aid climbers carry too few slings OR biners. They think in terms of free climbing, but one of the fun things about aid is starting a pitch with a huge rack and leaving most of it on a pitch arriving light but with enough.
But what to carry depends upon the pitch.
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asandh
Jul 13, 2005, 10:58 PM
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:)
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shack
Jul 13, 2005, 11:52 PM
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In reply to: 6 draws 4 - 2ft runners
What? Are you nuts?
I take double that on free climbs!
Try more like 10-15 shoulder slings
10ea 12" and 6" slings.
Listen to Mike's advice. Take twice what you think you will need.
For some aid lines you might want a runner on most pieces.
You could probably get away with the single biner per piece,
if the route/pitch was perfectly straight.
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euroford
Jul 14, 2005, 12:25 AM
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thanks for the tips yall!!
currently i have on hand 16 draws (bd 12mm spectra w 2x bd nuetrinos) and another 8 'trad draws' (24" mammut w 2x bd n's) and 2 'double runners' (48" mammut w 2x bd n's), basicly a well kitted out trad rack.
i rack all of my active gear on 1 biner each, so in the case of a straight up line cams won't need a draw, but all passive gear, fixed gear and cams in the case of a wandering line/roof will need some kind of extension.
dangle: i've definitly tried what your talking about, in recent history i did that quite a bit when i climbed in Garden of The Gods a couple of weeks ago. i'll certainly keep some free webbing and free biners around for tying off pins or old pins/pins in weird spots which won't take a biner. however, i did find it slower than i wish.
i'm trying to put a major emphasis on speed in my aid climbing lately, and one item i'm trying to rectify is screwing around with draws. if want to have enough of them than i can stop debating about extension of my pieces and slap a draw on dang near everything without constantly worrying about my supply.
i got a tip from Amber (whichi believe she got from Ammon) that i tried out and liked; it definitly saved me a bit of time on each piece and ultimatly allot of time at the end of the pitch. i racked up with my regular draws on both sides of my harness in my front gear loops (longer sling draws went on the back loops) and every time i took my aiders off a piece i clipped them into a draw, so when i got to my next piece i would just reach down, grab a draw, clip it into the piece and i would already have my aiders clipped to the draw.
when i placed a cam that wouldn't need a draw (or if i was in a situation that would dictate the special need of a long sling) i'd just unclip the aiders from my racked draws.
of course, the only problem was that 16 draws wasn't nearly enough. so i know i need more, and i want more than enough, but being that these lightweight draws are kinda pricey i don't want to grossly overshoot my needs! unfortunatly, i live in chicago so its kind of hard to just learn from experience about these things!! :x
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shack
Jul 14, 2005, 2:20 AM
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Cheap: FISH Products has the best and cheapest sewn nylon runners anywhere.
Available in all sizes with copious amounts of bartacks(usually like 9)!
Example: a 12" runner is only $2.50, same price for 11/16", 3/4" or 1" !
Cheapest:Hand tied nylon, a hand tied is only like $1.00 for a 12".
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asandh
Jul 14, 2005, 5:13 AM
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:)
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russwalling
Jul 14, 2005, 5:20 AM
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Not sure if this helps as most stuff is route specific, but here is what I used to take, you know...back in the day.:
Normally I was on some big ass nailing route, and free climbing was maybe the last 4 feet on to the summit, but anyway:
10 to 15 full length over the shouder guys. Maybe one 48" "double runner" but usually just made do with an aider or something instead. I would also have most of these "tied" not "bartacked". Gives you more options for impromptu knotting and adjusting.
Zero "quick draws". They didn't really exist and I think they are a waste of space and biners.
200 tie offs. If they get knicked, they get easy to break. I used to use the 9/16" REGULAR, not the 9/16" supertape. That stuff is harder to find than Dr. Piton on a 5.8 move. Use 1/2" tubular nowadays. Not really strong but adequate.
100 9/16" SUPERTAPE tie offs. These are the key to my system. I would put one through the eye of virtually every piton. They were thick enough not to cut during a fall, gave flexibility to the system, and saved biners.
Not sure if you asked about biners, but we always tried to have close to 100 free biners. That is after your gear is racked. 100 free's is golden. By day three, at least 20 are clipped to sweaters, headlamps, and butt wipes. Bring a 100.... you'll be lucky if you have 60 free on your rack after the attrition.
hope this helps....
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imnotclever
Jul 14, 2005, 12:32 PM
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Very good thread!
Dangle,
So lets say you place an alien and you want to use it for pro. You just girth hitch your 10" runner to the eye ignoring the sling that the alien came with? Obviously this increases the distance by 6”.
Euro,
Using Ammon's method of preclipping the aider to the draw aren't you losing the distance of the biner in height on every placement -instead of clipping to the piece? Have you noticed any effects from this?
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dangle
Jul 14, 2005, 3:12 PM
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Imnot,
I'd clip the ETRIER directly to the alien, and depending upon the pitch I'd either use the alien sling or extend it if I wasn't going to backclean.
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landgolier
Jul 14, 2005, 3:24 PM
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Russ, granted you buy webbing by the spool and I buy it by the five spot, but were you saying 9/16 tube mil spec is hard to find? Or are you talking about some kind of flat webbing? I see 9/16 mil spec (3 tracers, 6 or 7 kN or something like that) all the time.
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russwalling
Jul 14, 2005, 3:45 PM
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Hi ya,
Yeah.. the 9/16" REGULAR tubular nylon. Be sure it is 9/16" and not the 1/2". We used to sell it by the mile, and then the source kinda dried up. Sounds like your 6/7 kn stuff might be the stuff. Send over about 4000yds if you can... cheap!
for the rest of yaz: 9/16" SUPER is widely available and Blue Water makes some fine stuff. The cool thing about the 9/16" regular was is tested out at around 1500 lb/bs. The similar but thinner 1/2" stuff goes at 1000 lb/bs. The 9/16" SUPER goes at something like 2300 lb/bs, but is much thicker than the tie off style of webbing.
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landgolier
Jul 14, 2005, 4:14 PM
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Yeah, that's the stuff. I guess the rolls I see in shops must be old stuff that nobody buys, I bet an REI robbery spree would net a shit-ton of it. Also some dude on ebay is selling it, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7169630878&category=50816 , he seems to be getting it from CMI but they don't list it any more. I was looking into buying a spool a while back for some shit I wanted to make, but then the weather got better so much for those big plans.
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ricardol
Jul 14, 2005, 4:19 PM
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this is a case where soloing actually makes things simpler ..
when you solo you dont have rope drag, so you only need to sling placements that need to be slung due to rock around the placement (very few) ..
on the moderate routes i've done i've carried:
about 6 shoulder length slings
about 20 tie offs (pretty small) .. make of 9/16" nylon.
here is the stuff i've used for tie offs
http://www.rei.com/product/80814.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CLIMBING_TOC
.. go figure .. it says not for holding falls (6.8 KN rating) ..umm .. well it would have held a short fall..
i carry about 60-70 loose carabiners ...
i'm still adding carabiners to my rack .. 60-70 is not enough .. (like russ said you end up using them to clip everything!)
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russwalling
Jul 14, 2005, 4:23 PM
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yeah.. that is the stuff. It is probably made by a manufacturer like Narricot Industries or some other mill. CMI may be selling it, but I'm sure they don't make it. As I recall, there are only a couple of mills that make the stuff in general. Buy all you can if you can get it cheap. Like .15 a yard, that will give you 100 tie offs for like $10.00. Good Value!!!
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bouldertom
Jul 14, 2005, 5:37 PM
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For making general purpose single length slings for free and aid climbing, is 9/16" enough or should I go all the way to 1"? Those are the two widths most readily available to me...and yes I'm a cheap bastard.
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dangle
Jul 14, 2005, 5:49 PM
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Acccch! Laddies what're you weeping into your pints about? A bit of old shoelace that Hamish's dog regurgitated should do in a pinch.
Back in the old days guys would resect their intestines for a piece of sling material. Ay laddie those men had guts!
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russwalling
Jul 14, 2005, 10:42 PM
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Say Boulder Tom:
The 9/16 we are mostly talking about is for tie offs and is not a great choice for regular duty slings. Probably a poor choice if you intend to live. But, 9/16 SUPERTAPE is pretty close to adequate for over the shoulder slings. By todays standards it is a bit thin on the numbers game, but your chances of breaking one in any climbing fall is virtually zero. You can move up to 11/16 tubular, which is kinda the industry standard in the sling dept. 1" tube is of course more than plenty strong. YMMV
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papounet
Jul 14, 2005, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: http://www.rei.com/product/80814.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CLIMBING_TOC .. go figure .. it says not for holding falls (6.8 KN rating) ..umm .. well it would have held a short fall..
the 6.8 Kn is for a single length, If you create a loop (for tie-off), you have something like
6.8 x 2 (2 strand) x .7 (tape knot ???) ~=9.5 kn
You can resume breathing... ;-)
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landgolier
Jul 14, 2005, 11:48 PM
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Yeah, the mil spec will probably hold falls as a runner, though spectators should keep in mind that for tie offs there can be girth hitching, piton edges, and other madness involved. I use both 9/16 and 11/16 super for tied runners, it's not a real big deal either way.
In reply to: In reply to: http://www.rei.com/product/80814.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CLIMBING_TOC .. go figure .. it says not for holding falls (6.8 KN rating) ..umm .. well it would have held a short fall.. the 6.8 Kn is for a single length, If you create a loop (for tie-off), you have something like 6.8 x 2 (2 strand) x .7 (tape knot ???) ~=9.5 kn You can resume breathing... ;-) |
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ricardol
Jul 15, 2005, 4:13 AM
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Its good to know that its not a big deal .. since i like the way this stuff handles ..
.. the stuff that is climbing spec on the same width is tubular, and therefore way stiffer ..
.. i plan on using it .. if i'm tying off a placement, it will most likely fail at about 6KN of force anyways ..
-- ricardo
In reply to: Yeah, the mil spec will probably hold falls as a runner, though spectators should keep in mind that for tie offs there can be girth hitching, piton edges, and other madness involved. I use both 9/16 and 11/16 super for tied runners, it's not a real big deal either way. In reply to: In reply to: http://www.rei.com/product/80814.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CLIMBING_TOC .. go figure .. it says not for holding falls (6.8 KN rating) ..umm .. well it would have held a short fall.. the 6.8 Kn is for a single length, If you create a loop (for tie-off), you have something like 6.8 x 2 (2 strand) x .7 (tape knot ???) ~=9.5 kn You can resume breathing... ;-) |
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landgolier
Jul 15, 2005, 4:27 AM
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OK, maybe "not a big deal" was a bad choice of words, but yeah, use whatever you want. BTW, 9/16 mil spec is also tubular, it's just thinner. Also worth considering, most 11/16 you find is way softer than the BW climb spec 9/16, it is a bit bigger overall but it takes a girth or clove hitch way better.
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papounet
Jul 15, 2005, 6:45 AM
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In reply to: Yeah, the mil spec will probably hold falls as a runner, though spectators should keep in mind that for tie offs there can be girth hitching, piton edges, and other madness involved.
I considered in my computation that a girth hitch or a clove hitch was used to attach the tie off to a piton.
as the tape knot is weaker than the tie off, it will fail before. the strength diminution is not (in that case) cumulative.
Ab absurdio, let's picture our climber stuck with 11 tie-offs and no more long slings, he could join them with 10 knots and obtain a sling of strength
6.8kn x 2 (2 strand) x .7 (tape knot ???) ~=9.5 kn
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lucas_timmer
Jul 28, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Are you retarded !!!
Editing a smiley 3 times
Damn...
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lucas_timmer
Jul 28, 2005, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: :) Last edited by asandh on 15 Jul 2005 22:15; edited 3 times in total |
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