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bigwallgumbie
Jul 15, 2002, 7:17 PM
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Hi all!!
I've been a sport climber for a number of years now and really enjoy it. When I mentioned I wanted to try out some trad a climber in the gym said he would take me to Stone Door, a local "friction" (??) area. After I agreed he mumbled something about it being "a good way to chop cold quarter bolts?" When I asked him about it he said I'ld find out later..
So what I want to know is whats an "cold quarter bolt"? Do I want to climb with this guy? I've got a bad feeling about him, he's sorta old and kinda smells funny.
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mountainmonkey
Jul 15, 2002, 7:25 PM
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old quarter-inch bolts ?
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radistrad
Jul 15, 2002, 7:32 PM
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Old and Smelly, probably a good climber.
However if I wanted to get into trad climbing I would look to climb cracks not slabs with old (not cold) 1/4" bolts. A bolt protecetd slab is not a trad climb, its probably a run out "bolted climb" .
Trad= Nuts and Cams and very very few bolts.
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climber1
Jul 15, 2002, 7:43 PM
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radistrad,
trad climbing does involve bolted climbs. however, these bolts were placed on lead. not rap bolted.
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ergophobe
Jul 15, 2002, 10:31 PM
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Climber1 is right. Lot's of classic older climbs (from the days before there was such a thing as "sport" climbing properly speaking) are entirely bolted, albeit drilled on lead. The key difference, however, is in the level of commitment. Some bolted slab climbs are *way* runout. The essence of sport climbing is not so much how or when the bolts were placed, but how far apart they are. If there is a high degree of objective risk (big runouts, falls onto ledges) it's not truly a sport climb. It's just a bolted route. Sport climbing implies routes that have safe, pre-placed gear so that you can test your physical limits rather your courage.
Radistrad is mostly right though - what is a sport climber going to learn by going out and clipping bolts that are merely weaker and farther apart than they are on your rap-bolted sport climbs? Get someone who can take you out on routes where you place you're own gear. That's where you'll learn and also where you'll see the real pleasure of trad climbing.
Above all, be safe and be smart.
Tom
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woodse
Jul 15, 2002, 11:26 PM
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I think the guy is expressing that he doesn't like sport climbing and when you are able to climb trad the bolts will no longer be necessary, hence it's a good way to chop those old quarter (1/4 inch) bolts.
IMHO
woodsE
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tim
Jul 16, 2002, 12:02 AM
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woodse --
You may think that, but I invite you to roll down to Stone Mountain any time it's cool enough, and I'll gladly loan you my entire rack if it'll help you chop the bolt (singular) on Mercury's Lead.
Same goes for the 2nd pitch of Scirocco in the Needles (California). Your lead!
Sometimes all the gear in the world is no substitute for a good solid bolt. I have no idea who these people are claiming that "trad climbs don't have bolts", but they're heavily constipated. The important part about bolts on trad climbs is that they were put there, drilling on lead, by the first ascensionist. Otherwise, get the pipe.
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billcoe_
Jul 16, 2002, 12:28 AM
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You said " Do I want to climb with this guy? I've got a bad feeling about him, he's sorta old and kinda smells funny."
Ummm, well, I guess if he's old and kinda smells funny, he'd be fine to climb with, I mean, that cetainly defines THE trad climber if I know my trad climbers at all. Most of the ones I climb with are like that, and I think I am too, come to think of it.
Seriously, ease into climbing with a new partner gradually. Look at the dudes friends, has he been climbing with the same folks for a while? Ask him about his experience, what has he done? What is his philosophy? Talk to the guys friends, is he safe, is he solid?
Man, old AND smelly. I think that pretty much says it all!!!
Sounds authentic to me!
You will find climbing cracks a great thing to add to your repretoir (sic), and immensily gratifying if you survive the early years. Having a competent mentor or classes is critical to safe learning IMO. Smelly dude might or might not be the guy you want. Find out first. BTW, when you come upon a 1/4 bolt, don't trust your life to it if you can avoid it (back it up with an RP etc etc) They usually only go 1 1/2" into the rock, unless the person placing them was lazy or the lead was dicy (in which case they may be only 1 inch long, TOTAL length. These are usually Rawl split shank construction bolts that would barely hold 2000 lbs in perfect conditions when new. When I was a pup, my partner John Petrosky pulled the 1st bolt while following on the bolt ladder on that nice route up Middle Cathedral in Yosemite (the real popular one), forget the name despite having done the route @8 or 9 times. It came out under his body weight, he was only standing on it. This was AFTER I had led up it. That route later went free at only 10C. I have the hanger in my chalk bag to this day, over 20 some years later, as a reminder of the weakness of the early bolts.
Enjoy:
Bill
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fishypete
Jul 18, 2002, 1:20 PM
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KEY words there:
"Find out First"
Dont commit to this guy until you are happy with his standards and philosophies.
It's your life in his hands otherwise!!
Fishy.
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radistrad
Jul 18, 2002, 2:01 PM
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Ok,
Ill take it, yes there can be some
'older" bolted routes that were put up in the ground up style, and I suppose that they can be called "trad" climbs. I will still consider it a bolted line not a trad climb
even if it was done ground up, like I said earlier, think trad: think nuts and cams, think sport think bolts, however there is nothing sporting about 1 bolt per pitch, that in my mind would be an "x" rated bolted climb and you'll be hard presed to find me on a climb like that.
Just my opinion and spray
cheers
[ This Message was edited by: radistrad on 2002-07-18 07:05 ]
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radistrad
Jul 18, 2002, 4:12 PM
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Ok, I see your point about the climb being put up in a "traditional" style and if there are RP or other supplemental gear placements to the bolts then I would consider it a "trad" climb.
So if its a wandering bolted route (no chance for gear) on glacier point apron (for example) and it was put in the traditional style (ground up, by hammer) is it a trad climb because of the style of ethics used by the FAist? I would consider this a bolted route no matter how the style of FA was.
And a climb like Prince of Darkness at Red Rocks, NV. This was put up ground up in a traditional style, is that a trad climb or is it a sport climb, there are numerous bolts on it.
My idea of a trad climb would be something like the E Buttress of El Cap, Reeds Direct or basically any route that most if not all of the pro was "trad gear" (nuts and cams).
I guess we could debate this all day, and hell it is thursday and thursdays suck.
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radistrad
Jul 18, 2002, 5:25 PM
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Geo,
I understand what you are saying and I tend to agree about the ground up traditional climbing ethics and you have helpd me to change my mind on what "exactly" a trad climb is.
I do most of my climbing in Yosemite and I mainly stick to the cracks, I have always considered crack climbing to be trad climbing.
I've done some bolted routes in Tuolumne and I always considered those just bolted routes, not trad climbs or sport climbs.
Thanks for your insight
-Rob
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phylp
Jul 18, 2002, 5:29 PM
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Re: what is a "trad" climb vs a "bolted" climb vs. a "sport".
Rob- When I first started climbing there were no "sport" bolted routes and no one used the word "trad" to describe any free climbs because there was no distinction to be made. To my recollection this whole use of the word "trad" originated when people (mostly sport climbers)wanted to distinguish closely bolted free climbs from all other free climbs (including those solely bolt protected in the old style). In fact, I've never heard any of my climbing friends use the word "trad" when talking about free climbs - in our usage, there are solos, aid climbs, "climbing" and "sport climbing". Does this date me?
All just words anyway...
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radistrad
Jul 18, 2002, 6:08 PM
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Yup, its all climbing! Climb on!
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