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cgranite
Jul 27, 2005, 11:11 PM
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I understand that there was a trial period, but where does it stand now?
What is the current situation with The Adventure Pass?
Is there force behind it now?
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csproul
Jul 27, 2005, 11:17 PM
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I don't know about the currrent status, but you can still buy a pass retroactively to pay for a ticket. I buy a national parks pass with the golden eagle hologram sticker and that can be used anywhere you need an adventure pass as well as national parks and many blm areas.
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tchamber
Jul 27, 2005, 11:23 PM
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Yes, there is force behind it depending on where you go. The annual pass is like $15 or $20, so go by it and support the underfunded Forest Service for maintaining (sort of) the roads and areas you are using.
Or you can get your golden eagle passport (the regular NPS annual pass will not work) which I believe works as well (I could be wrong). I got mine at the gate to Red Rocks, but JTree also sells them at the gate, you may be able to buy one at the National Forest Visitor Center (not sure), and REI used to sell them but now does not. I think you can also order them online. I think it ran me $65.
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jeffstephan
Jul 28, 2005, 12:42 AM
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Look at it this way,
To buy an Adventure Pass is considered a "yes" vote to continue it. To not purchase is a "no" vote.
Enjoy being double taxed do ya? Then the answer is quite clear. It never existed in the first place. :wink:
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cgranite
Jul 28, 2005, 1:48 AM
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I don't want to support something that is completly unnessery and loose what little money I have.
I have had multiple friends who threw away the tickets and nothing happened at all. What's up with that? Is it still that way? That's what I'm asking.
I'm all for supporting something that's good and real,...this doesn't seem like it.
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jowanky
Jul 28, 2005, 2:34 AM
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Isnt the adventure pass backed by companies like Disney and REI? I am all for giving some money to climb and maintain areas, but not if the adventures pass is the minion of corporate machines.
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mungeclimber
Jul 28, 2005, 5:07 PM
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Where's Bob when you need him.
Restate our case brother.
Don't buy it imo. I climbed at Sespe Gorge and didn't bother with it.
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dingus
Jul 28, 2005, 5:26 PM
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The fee demonstration program is no longer a demonstration program. Its permanent. Some demo areas were dropped and others solidified. The last I read was this... if the forest service (and potentially BLM) maintaine facilities at a given site, eg parking lot, latrines, etc, they will consider and most likely levy a fee for such use. Unimproved access points, a dirt pulloff near a trail on FS land, will not be subject to fees.
There has been much written here and elsewhere about this evolving issue. I used to get my bowels in an uproar over this shit, but its really a big whatever.
Oh, and they can make those tickets stick now, based upon a federal court of appeals decision (I think). Their issue was 'who enforces these tickets, who collects and pursues the scofflaws... and those issues were resolved. So if you choose not to pay, don't be surprised when you get a summons to Federal court...
Cheers
DMT
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cgranite
Jul 29, 2005, 2:21 AM
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So has it solidified at Horse Flats and Black Mountain? Those are the two places I'm most concerned with in this thread.
How much does it cost daily or if you get it for three days?
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thinksinpictures
Jul 29, 2005, 3:15 AM
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It's $5 a day or $35 for the whole year. That's a pretty damn good deal.
To the complainers: the money goes to the Forest Service, a fantastically underfunded branch of the federal government. They get ~.2% of annual federal spending, which is pretty low for an organization that manages 193 million acres of land for you to play on. Incidentally, for you to be "double taxed," you'd need to be paying $17,500 in taxes (the FS would then see .2% of that, which is the $35 cost of the pass). To pay that in taxes, your taxable income would have to be $81,689. That's taxable income, not total.
(1) The majority of the people who use this site don't make anywhere near that much money.
(2) If you make that much money, you must have more important things to worry about than $35 a year.
P.S. REI is not a corporation, it's a cooperative. This "corporate machine" passes its profits directly to it's owners, which is anyone who has an REI membership card. Which is me.
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asandh
Jul 29, 2005, 4:12 PM
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:)
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dingus
Jul 29, 2005, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: even dingus has thrown in the towel :)
I wouldn't call myself a supporter, but you're right, I've thrown in the towel. I decided the extra 20 bucks a year (or whatever) for a Golden Eagle Pass, was easier than getting my middle class ass all in an uproar over something totally beyond my control.
The price of gas to get to the trailhead affects me FAR MORE than a piddling fs access fee.
Cheers
DMT
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asandh
Jul 29, 2005, 4:33 PM
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dingus wrote:In reply to: The price of gas to get to the trailhead affects me FAR MORE than a piddling fs access fee.
.... and that's precisely why its so important to support complete renewal of every provision in the Patriot Act :)
drip ... drip ... drip ...
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jelliott
Jul 29, 2005, 5:32 PM
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As far as the Pass goes this is the last I heard:
1. If your worried about it you can use any of the national parks pass....just display it on your dashboard. It doubles as the Adventure Pass at least in Idyllwild areas (i.e. Tahquitz/Suicide, Black Mountain)
2. It was a bad program and the initiative has actually expired most people have no idea why the National Parks are still enforcing the noncompliance. It has no teeth and is no longer even there. Local newspapers have asked park services why they are enforcing and they get no reply.
3. Yes, corporation were looking to profit. And if you want to see information on the actual issues go here. http://www.freeourforests.org/ Also at this site they have a like that has printout that essentially says your dissenting and refuse and have the right not to pay.
4. To date I have 5 noncompliance notices. Nothing has happened. Also if you still are worried have you have a pass to get into Yosemite or JTree they work as well. They had to modify the sign at Humber Park to allow this and you can call the ranger station and give them your Nat'l Park Pass number or go in and have them remove them.
5. Therefore the Demo program doesn't exist anymore. To date there has passed new legislation that imposes a possible $5000 fine but these are for developed parks. The criteria is set and it is even more evil then the Fee Demo program. Nicknamed RAT you can read all about it. Check it out and inform yourself. THIS WILL AFFECT EVERYONE. It calls for more money to corporations and will involve them issueing permits for everything under these laws.
http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/updates.htm
Hope this info helps.
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dingus
Jul 29, 2005, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: 2. It was a bad program and the initiative has actually expired most people have no idea why the National Parks are still enforcing the noncompliance. It has no teeth and is no longer even there. Local newspaper have asked park services why they are enforcing and they get no reply.
This would be why:
Reference: http://www.funoutdoors.com/node/view/1208
Lots of google hits on this of course. As far as I know, the below passed earlier this year or late last, largely intact with the proposed legislation. Yes, the fee demo program is no more. The 'fee permanent' program has taken its seat at the table.
Congress Replaces National Recreation Fee Demonstration Program
Washington, D.C. (November 24, 2004) – The National Recreation Fee Demonstration Program, created in 1996 as a three-year experiment, will soon be replaced by a new recreation fee program covering five federal agencies and providing a ten-year fee authorization. The new Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, created under Section J of HR 4818, the omnibus appropriations measure for Fiscal Year 2005, is based upon legislation introduced by U.S. Representative Ralph Regula (OH-16) and amended and approved by the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Resources. Mr. Regula played a central role in the development of the fee demo program and its extension as the Congress sought to craft long-term recreation fee policy.
The new federal recreation fee program enjoys support from most recreation and tourism interests, largely because the required retention of at least 80% of collected fees at local sites should result in improved visitor experiences. Other key provisions of the legislation include:
* well-defined guidelines on where recreation fees may be imposed, specifically prohibiting fees for locations which proved most controversial during the fee demonstration program.
* the addition of the Bureau of Reclamation to the fee program.
* clear direction to the five federal agencies to coordinate fee programs and avoid multiple or layered recreation fees.
* continue special treatment for certain Americans, exempting or making nominal fees charged to children, seniors, people with disabilities and schools.
* creation of a two-tier daily/short-duration fee program for BLM, Forest Service and Bureau of Reclamation lands: a standard amenity recreation fee and an expanded amenity recreation fee involving the use of special facilities (including campsites) or the receipt of special services.
* explicit requirements for public involvement in the development or changing of a recreation fee and for reporting on the use of collected fees. For the Forest Service and BLM, the Secretaries of Agriculture and the Interior are directed to establish Recreation Resource Advisory Committees (RRAC) for each state or region. There are exceptions and alternatives to this requirement. Each RRAC is required to have 11 members meeting specific criteria and will be subject to Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) provisions.
* a new inter-agency annual pass called the “America the Beautiful – the National Parks and Federal Recreation Lands Pass.” All other national passes are prohibited, including existing, single-agency passes. The new pass may be marketed through government and non-government entities. The pass will be valid for 12 months after purchase (not for a specific calendar year) and when purchased by a citizen or person domiciled in the US over 62 years of age, will cost $10 and be valid for the passholder’s lifetime. Details on the pass will be determined by the Secretaries of Agriculture and the Interior but are expected to resemble those now applying to Golden Eagle and National Park passes.
* authority for site-specific annual passes.
* authority for special recreation permit fees for group activities, recreation events, and motorized recreational vehicle use.
* authority for regional, multi-entity passes that could cover areas managed by a variety of federal, other governmental and nongovernmental entities for periods up to one year – including federal agencies not included under this legislation like the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
* authority for discounted and free admission days.
* authority to enter into fee-collection agreements with governmental and nongovernmental entities in gateway communities, including agreements which involve providing emergency medical and law enforcement services.
* authority to deposit and manage receipts and to spend those receipts without further appropriation.
* limitations on use of the funds. Generally, the fees must be used in ways directly related to visitor enjoyment, access and safety and the operations of the fee program. There are specific prohibitions on use of the funds for (a) biological monitoring under the Endangered Species Act and (b) for employee bonuses.
* a limitation of 15% (with some exceptions) of total collections for administration, overhead and indirect costs of the fee program.
* reports on the fee program must be submitted to the Congress on May 1, 2006, and every three years thereafter.
* authority to use volunteers to collect fees, and to waive or discount fees in exchange for volunteer services. Further, the America the Beautiful Pass and regional passes may be issued to volunteers in exchange for “significant” volunteer services.
* authority to enforce the fee requirements.
* repeal of pre-existing fee authorities and general exemption from revenue-distribution provisions of other acts, which in many instances dictate that 25% or more of agency receipts be shared with state and local governments.
Commenting on the new legislation, American Recreation Coalition President Derrick Crandall said, “Congressman Regula has worked for more than a decade to supplement Congressional appropriations with fees paid by those enjoying visits to federal recreation sites. We applaud his hard work and the good-faith efforts of the Administration, which has listened carefully to the concerns of those who support fees but were concerned about specific elements of the fee demonstration program. This is a good framework for improved recreation experiences on America’s public lands and we are excited by the opportunity to work together on the America the Beautiful pass, the new regional passes and the volunteer provisions of the legislation. The result of this legislation should be $200 million or more in new resources every year above and beyond appropriations. Fees will remain only one part of caring for our legacy of public lands, and the fees authorized under this measure will not block access to public lands by anyone, regardless of their financial situation.”
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ryrock
Aug 2, 2005, 1:28 AM
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Yes, the money goes to Rocky Mountain Recreation Co. BUT they also run many of the NFS campgrounds (at least in CA), so the anti-corporate vibe may need expansion.
I think it sucks that around here (Santa Barbara) many of the poor residents (i.e. those working for the rich residents/tourists) look for something cheap to do so they head to mountains to swim in a disgusting river or swimming hole. Regardless of their income, legal status, etc they have to pay hanging out in the forest. Bummer.
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jowanky
Aug 25, 2005, 8:16 PM
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uh my corporate minion comment was a joke. thanks. So i just got a ticket the other day, I cant shift through this mumbo jumbo so do i have to pay it or not?
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fightingmuskrat
Aug 25, 2005, 8:59 PM
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A National Parks Pass with the Golden Eagle Hologram is a valid alternative to the Adventure Pass. Display it and you cannot be ticketed.
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sirdrinksalot
Aug 25, 2005, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Isnt the adventure pass backed by companies like Disney and REI? I am all for giving some money to climb and maintain areas, but not if the adventures pass is the minion of corporate machines. OH GOD NO!!!! It's... It's... an evil CORPORATION and it's coming this way!!!! RUN!!!!! Do you even know what a corporation is you dunce? |
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hollywoodcragmonkey
Aug 25, 2005, 10:56 PM
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[quote="csgambill"]In reply to: OH GOD NO!!!! It's... It's... an evil CORPORATION and it's coming this way!!!! RUN!!!!! Do you even know what a corporation is you dunce?
cor·po·ra·tion P (kÙrp-rshn)
n.
A body that is granted a charter recognizing it as a separate legal entity having its own rights, privileges, and liabilities distinct from those of its members.
Such a body created for purposes of government. Also called body corporate.
A group of people combined into or acting as one body.
First, explain to me how Disney DOESN'T fall into the Webster's definition. Second, if you lived in Los Angeles, and had ever had to deal with the sweeties at Mouschwitz (just one of their many local nicknames) you would know that calling them "evil" is letting them off easy.
As far as the pass goes, I buy it. The man has his hands in my pocket 24/7, giving a little extra to the parks service doesn't bother me. But that is my CHOICE, and I think it should remain just that, a choice.
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hollywoodcragmonkey
Nov 24, 2005, 7:56 PM
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I got a ticket about six months ago, didn't pay, still have not recieved so much as a note in the mail. If anyone has any more solid information, howeber, that would be great.
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