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Butterly knot for two-rope rap
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mosler


Aug 1, 2005, 1:34 PM
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Butterly knot for two-rope rap
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Anyone ever used a butterfly knot to join two different diameter ropes for rappel? Comments or suggestions appreciated.


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 2:08 PM
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Re: Butterly knot for two-rope rap [In reply to]
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no i would say use a double fisherman


vegastradguy


Aug 1, 2005, 2:09 PM
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Re: Butterly knot for two-rope rap [In reply to]
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any particular reason you just don't use an overhand?

i suppose a butterfly would work, i just think the overhand is quicker and easier to deal with...


ben87


Aug 1, 2005, 2:16 PM
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are we talking about the same knot....? the butterfly knot that I know doesn't seem applicable


epic_ed


Aug 1, 2005, 2:22 PM
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Re: Butterly knot for two-rope rap [In reply to]
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Can't picture how you would tie that knot. It's a single-strand knot tied in the middle of a rope.

What purpose are you trying to accomplish? Maybe we can offer some suggestions.

Ed


jelliott


Aug 1, 2005, 2:22 PM
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using a overhand knot with two different diameters doesn't seem wise... not that i would know... what i use and have always understood is use a double fishermans and make sure you remember which side the knot is one when you pull the rope


Partner slacklinejoe


Aug 1, 2005, 2:24 PM
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Re: Butterly knot for two-rope rap [In reply to]
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In reply to:
are we talking about the same knot....? the butterfly knot that I know doesn't seem applicable

To the contrary, the Alpine butterfly can be used to join 2 ropes with the benefits of the EDK without the whole worrysome rolling. I cannot say however how it handles with different sizes of rope.

http://rockandice.com/beta/142%20Better%20Beta.pdf


(the climbing definition thing is breaking my URLs again - it can't be turned off - so the lazy, well too bad - you'll have to copy paste)


sspssp


Aug 1, 2005, 2:50 PM
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The butterfly is perfectly safe, but it is a large knot and it would be more likely to get stuck.

The advantage of the butterfly is that it is easy to untie after weighting, not usually a problem when rapping. If you have to tie to ropes together that you are later going to jug up, then the butterfly is a good choice.


sspssp


Aug 1, 2005, 2:52 PM
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For those of you that can't picture how you would do this, tie a butterfly in a single rope. Now, take a knife and cut the big loop in the middle. You have two ropes tied with a butterfly. (Or you could start with two ropes and tie it as appropriate.)


Partner slacklinejoe


Aug 1, 2005, 2:53 PM
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In reply to:
For those of you that can't picture how you would do this, tie a butterfly in a single rope. Now, take a knife and cut the big loop in the middle. You have two ropes tied with a butterfly. (Or you could start with two ropes and tie it as appropriate.)

Of they can just go to that link I posted.. it has a pretty picture and all :D


mosler


Aug 1, 2005, 2:58 PM
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My concern with joining two different diameter ropes (9.8 and 10.5) with an overhand for a rappel is the slippage, as opposed to the butterfly knot. Also, the orientation of the butterfly would pull the same way as the overhand and would probably snag less than the fishermans.


Partner kimgraves


Aug 1, 2005, 4:17 PM
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In reply to:
(the climbing definition thing is breaking my URLs again - it can't be turned off - so the lazy, well too bad - you'll have to copy paste)

For the lazy try this


Partner slacklinejoe


Aug 1, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
(the climbing definition thing is breaking my URLs again - it can't be turned off - so the lazy, well too bad - you'll have to copy paste)

For the lazy try this.


I already tried that.... the climbing definition pop up stuff breaks on the word BETA, despite the option of turning that off, it won't actually turn off within the post.


Partner kimgraves


Aug 1, 2005, 4:23 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
(the climbing definition thing is breaking my URLs again - it can't be turned off - so the lazy, well too bad - you'll have to copy paste)

For the lazy try this.


I already tried that.... the climbing definition pop up stuff breaks on the word BETA, despite the option of turning that off, it won't actually turn off within the post.

Sorry, man. You're right. It worked fine in preview. And then when I tried to edit it, it worked fine there too. This is a bug. We should leave it up so Tim can take a look. I'll report it.

Best, Kim


kachoong


Aug 1, 2005, 4:31 PM
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In reply to:
using a overhand knot with two different diameters doesn't seem wise... not that i would know... what i use and have always understood is use a double fishermans and make sure you remember which side the knot is one when you pull the rope
The overhand is the simplist, smallest knot to join any two ropes. We use it for different diameter ropes. Just make sure your tails are at least a foot long(don't rap on the tails) and tie a back up overhand in the tail too just to make sure.

In reply to:
My concern with joining two different diameter ropes (9.8 and 10.5) with an overhand for a rappel is the slippage, as opposed to the butterfly knot. Also, the orientation of the butterfly would pull the same way as the overhand and would probably snag less than the fishermans.
If the knot is dressed down completely, this shouldn't happen. The butterfly knot sounds like an interesting choice. I haven't used one, so I can't comment, but I find them quite difficult to dress down completely. Perhaps with different diameter ropes this works better.... *shrug*


robo555


Aug 1, 2005, 6:25 PM
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Re: Butterly knot for two-rope rap [In reply to]
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Another link for showing how to use butterfly as a bend (to join two ropes)

http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm


epic_ed


Aug 1, 2005, 10:59 PM
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Thanks for the photo links, I couldn't picture this one at all. Just when you thought you'd seen every knot in the book...you run into some silly ex-sailor who has a bondage fetish. :roll:

Ed


kachoong


Aug 1, 2005, 11:10 PM
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In reply to:
Thanks for the photo links, I couldn't picture this one at all. Just when you thought you'd seen every knot in the book...you run into some silly ex-sailor who has a bondage fetish. :roll:

Ed
:lol: :lol:

Definately the words of a sailor:
In reply to:
According to Budworth, the Alpine Butterfly can be pulled in two or three directions at once without distorting or capsizing
....ever heard of a knot capsizing?

http://www.layhands.com/...utterflyBendAlt2.jpghttp://www.layhands.com/...utterflyBendAlt3.jpg

Dunno if I'd have the tails that short, but I would probably still be a little nervous initially rapping off that knot.... gotta see to believe.... but I'll stick to the overhand for now....


robo555


Aug 2, 2005, 1:55 AM
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Of course like all knots you won't leave the tail that short, the pic's just for demo.

climbing.com has an article on joining ropes with the Alpine Butterfly as well:

http://www.climbing.com/techtips/ttaid222/


sharpie


Aug 2, 2005, 6:05 AM
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In reply to:
using a overhand knot with two different diameters doesn't seem wise... not that i would know...


:lol: :lol: :lol: Classic RC.com response.....


jelliott


Aug 2, 2005, 8:19 AM
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knots can capsize. what they mean is demostrated by taking a square knot then taking one of the tails and pull it down toward the othertail. it undoes the knot and then you can just pull the other end through.


northerndrawl


Aug 2, 2005, 8:58 AM
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Anyone ever use a sheet bend for joining different sized ropes when climbing? Supposed to be what its meant for, but I've never used it in a critical application.


alpnclmbr1


Aug 2, 2005, 9:01 AM
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It is pretty ridiculous that a national publication would advocate a new use for a knot on the basis of one random person writing a letter to a magazine.


Partner slacklinejoe


Aug 2, 2005, 9:05 AM
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In reply to:
It is pretty ridiculous that a national publication would advocate a new use for a knot on the basis of one random person writing a letter to a magazine.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that my complete rope techniques mentions using the alpline butterfly this way as well. It's part of their advanced topics for guide cert in the back of the book if memory serves. I know I'd seen it prior to that article (in book form, not practice anyway).


sspssp


Aug 2, 2005, 9:06 AM
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Well assuming the online tech tip is the same that showed up in print a few months ago...

PTPP tech tip didn't rely on the butterfly. He said to tie the ropes normally, then tie a butterfly that had the previous knot inside the loop. So if anything it is more redundant and it is easier to untie after jugging the lines. With an added benefit of having a convenient tie in point for passing the knot when rapping.

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