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king_rat
Aug 3, 2005, 12:11 PM
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hi all
As my last thread was taken over by a debate about quick draws I thought I would start another.
In England it is usual practice to use quick draws to clip nuts, where the nut is well placed and the rope will run smoothly. if it is going to cause rope drag a longer sling is used. The use of two ropes is standard practice in Britain as well and with a little care and good rope technique rope drag with short Qickdraws is not a problem.
I have never had a problem with quickdraws but they seem to be taboo for trad climbing in the US.
Yours
KR
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euroford
Aug 3, 2005, 12:21 PM
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i carry a mix of long floppy quickdraws (not the short stiff ones for sport climbing) and trippled runners. quickdraws are fine when used appropriotly.
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orangekyak
Aug 3, 2005, 12:35 PM
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Some climbers get so rapped up in believing that there are rules to the game.
What keeps you alive and safe is GOOD HABITS, not RULES.
The folks who say "never clip a draw to a nut" seem to fall in the category of people who believe that climbers need rules. The word "never" is an absolute. There are times to clip short sport draws to nuts. And there are many many times not to.
I have two suggestions for the folks out there who are having a hard time with this.
1- Calm down. Other people are allowed to do things differently than you do.
2- Consider buying a few 12" open slings, and rack them like draws. I carry six sport draws and four 12" open draws on most climbs. The 12" open draws do not contribute to "nut wiggle," because I use 24" or 48" slings when they are necessary.
I won't sit here and tell you that you have to do it that way, but I'll say that it works for me, or at least it has so far.
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geezergecko
Aug 3, 2005, 12:36 PM
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There are these new 8mm wide 24"(60cm) slings (eg. Mammut, Onsight) and I found that if you triple up one of these then you get a trad draw that weighs the same as a sport draw. I used to carry a blend of trad and sport draws but now with these dental floss runners, it's all trad draws for me.
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rock_geek
Aug 3, 2005, 1:03 PM
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In reply to: I have never had a problem with quick draws but they seem to be taboo for trad climbing in the US.
I personally have never heard a climber criticize me or any climbers I know for using quick draws on a trad climb. I have been climbing for seven or eight years and all of that time has been in the US. I know a lot of sport and trad climbers from all over the US, and almost all of them use some variation of both quick draws and slings while climbing trad.
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lstockett
Aug 3, 2005, 1:04 PM
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Like the previous poster, I carry double-length slings which I keep tripled as extendable quickdraws. Some people around here refer to them as "trad draws". Same weight, more flexibility. The stiff quickdraws with a bent-gate 'biner (krab) on one side are a little easier for me to clip, but I don't mind giving that up. I climb mostly with a single rope, so I carry enough of these so I'll have one for every placement.
When I climb with doubles I find that I often don't need to extend cam placements at all. Nut placements get one of my tripled slings, extended or not as the situation demands.
I don't have anything against using stiff 'sport' draws on trad though. It just doesn't seem like the best solution for me.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2005, 1:18 PM
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acording to dirteye from the other post we are all gonna die horrible and imeadiate deaths if we so much as dare to use a draw on a tradclimb :roll:
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jammer
Aug 3, 2005, 1:30 PM
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I prefer to use slings only for the reason that I can extend them and not QD's. For the same weight, I feel slings offer more then qd's and feel as if I have a fuller rack with them. QD's are safe enough for trad, but the length of the dog-bone is what is really in question here.
If you can not afford to purchase slings, then use your qd's. I do, however, question the use of qd's when having to double or tripple up on your qd's when having to extend for rope drag. Biner on biner is scarry shit. Where is your comfort zone?
Alan
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joshy8200
Aug 3, 2005, 2:15 PM
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My buddy and I both started out using only quickdraws to clip nuts when we started climbing trad. I never had a problem (except for one incidence with a marginal nut placement lifting).
I don't really like carrying loads of doubled/tripled up sligs because they're too bulky and I haven't found I need them that often.
Right now I'm in the process of buying new quickdraws by Black Diamond. I don't know about the actually measurement but they're probably around the 7in mark (which is a little longer than regular draws). They're also spectra instead of the stiff nylon dogbone, which is really nice.
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dingus
Aug 3, 2005, 2:40 PM
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Can't use draws on trad placements???
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
(uh boy...)
DMT
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rgold
Aug 3, 2005, 3:37 PM
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KR baits his trolling hooks with uncritical, unverifiable, illogical, and indiscriminate generalizations.
A few posters recommend substantial racks and he announces that U.S. racks are bloated compared to the purportedly spare U.K. variety. Someone doesn't like short stiff quickdraws and he proclaims that these draws are taboo for trad climbing in the U.S, although the Brits have no problem using them.
A phony characterization of U.S. climbing practices is followed by the arrogant suggestion that U.K. climbers know better.
The Revolutionary War has been over for more than two centuries KR. Lotsa luck re-starting it.
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rgold
Aug 3, 2005, 3:38 PM
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Double post deleted.
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caughtinside
Aug 3, 2005, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: I have never had a problem with quickdraws but they seem to be taboo for trad climbing in the US.
They aren't taboo, there is just one vocal user on RC.com who is convinced you will die if you use them. There are definitely occasions where extending with a quickdraw on a trad climb is perfectly acceptable.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 3, 2005, 3:44 PM
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As usual, all the trad climbers on this site sound like spurt climbers.
"If I use a quickdraw on that piece, I will not fall as far."
Chuckle
Most of the time that people use quickdraws on trad climbs, they would actually be safer with a long sling.(don't try telling them that) This isn't to say that there are not times and places where draws can be useful on a particular trad route.
For myself, a standard trad rack has two 12" spectra draws, typically for use when there is difficult climbing right off the ground.
The most common scenarios where it is appropriate to bring a handful of draws is for sustained finger cracks that take bomber stoppers and traversing cracks.
Using draws with with a double rope system negates most of the advantages of using a double rope system in the first place. They are most applicable to short and known routes
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sactownclimber
Aug 3, 2005, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: . . . but they seem to be taboo for trad climbing in the US.
I usually care a mixture of "sport draws" (a bit of a mis-nomer if you ask me, it's just a quickdraw) and tripled over 8mm dynemma slings (the so-called "trad-draw"). The placement dictates what I use: if it's a nut that's been set well and is unlikely to lift out and the route doesn't meander, then I'll use a "sport-draw." If for whatever reason I need to, I'll use an extended "trad-draw."
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caughtinside
Aug 3, 2005, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: This isn't to say that there are not times and places where draws can be useful on a particular trad route.
That's what everyone is saying, dipshit.
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lucas_timmer
Aug 3, 2005, 4:09 PM
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Is usually use both sport and trad draws(with trad I mean dyneema, not those made of doubled slings) with either single on double ropes and it works for me, no ropedrag at all.
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mikewong
Aug 3, 2005, 4:43 PM
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I also use a combination of quickdraws and 'trad draws' on trad climbs with no problems. The quickdraws I use are Spectra made by Bluewater that only have a single bartack on the bottom to orient the bentgate biner (essentially an open loop) and are not the 'dogbone' sport style draws that I think people are calling 'quickdraws' (which I think could cause a problem on a trad climb).
Just my 2 cents.
Mike
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saxfiend
Aug 3, 2005, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: acording to dirteye from the other post we are all gonna die horrible and imeadiate deaths if we so much as dare to use a draw on a tradclimb
JL
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dirtineye
Aug 3, 2005, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This isn't to say that there are not times and places where draws can be useful on a particular trad route. That's what everyone is saying, s---.
Jesus christ dude, alpncmbr1 finally makes a post in a reasonably calm and nice guy tone, and you have to call him names?
And I am not convinced that anyone will die if they use quick draws on a trad climb, but it is obvious that they will burn in sport climber hell for doing so.
There is no reason to take a quick draw on a trad climb. On the other hand, here are a few things you can't do with a QD:
1. Can't make an alpine clutch.
2. Can't make a rappel backup.
3. Can't make any of the friction knots to ascend or belay escape.
4. Can't sling a horn, flake edge, or dinner plate.
There are more, to be sure, but these should be enough to convince.
On a related topic, rope drag is the Great Satan in trad climbing. Ideally, only the bottom piece (set against an upward and outward pull) and the top piece should take any loading in a fall. Slings are better suited to fulfillingthis ideal than sport draws are.
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caughtinside
Aug 3, 2005, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: Jesus christ dude, alpncmbr1 finally makes a post in a reasonably calm and nice guy tone, and you have to call him names?
Well, his tone was calm, but have you noticed how he drops a nice condescending
chuckle
in all his posts now? I especially like how he repeated previously given advice as though no one had mentioned it before, and like he's the only one with a clue as to how to climb. Did you catch his idiotic post about the revolver the other day?
And I was teasing about the slings/dying thing. But sport climber hell sounds like a nice place to burn! :lol:
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dirtineye
Aug 3, 2005, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jesus christ dude, alpncmbr1 finally makes a post in a reasonably calm and nice guy tone, and you have to call him names? Well, his tone was calm, but have you noticed how he drops a nice condescending chuckle in all his posts now? I especially like how he repeated previously given advice as though no one had mentioned it before, and like he's the only one with a clue as to how to climb. Did you catch his idiotic post about the revolver the other day? And I was teasing about the slings/dying thing. But sport climber hell sounds like a nice place to burn! :lol:
Yeah but at least the chuckle is a step in the right direction. maybe this site just got to him with all the crap and now he is down to an exasperated wry chuckle? I think the guy has a few other problems, and I hope they work out for him, cause he used to be one of the best posters on the site. IT seems that lately something has cluoded his judgement.
The revolver post was a bit rabid, but some of the problems he mentioned exist. I'm thinking the revolver is good for situations where sharp bends in the rope are unavoidable, and for impromptu hauling setups.
Hmmm, maybe yo uare right about the sport climber hell thing... if a sport climber went there they might kind of like it.
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jelliott
Aug 3, 2005, 5:46 PM
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sport climber might like sport climber hell but what if that hell consist of only R/X trad climbs....mmmm that would be trad heaven while being sport climber hell
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nowinowski
Aug 3, 2005, 6:05 PM
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I use quickdraws when I dont feel like deracking slings from my shoulder -- where they belong. So D.I.E. how often are you falling on your gear?
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tenn_dawg
Aug 3, 2005, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: I use quickdraws when I dont feel like deracking slings from my shoulder -- where they belong. So D.I.E. how often are you falling on your gear?
Falling or HANGING???
'chuckle'
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