|
tattooed_climber
Aug 6, 2005, 4:25 AM
Post #1 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 4838
|
This thought has ran through my head afew times:
Has anyone, summer during alpine or whatnot, gone with out a sleeping bag and only with a bivy sack and some synthetic pants and jackage? If so, whats a temp. rating for this system (if it can be estimated)
i'm trying to kill some weight (and procrastinate buying a new down sleeping bag)
i can see some pros and cons off the bat, but whats everyones thought on this topic???????????
|
|
|
|
|
cupton
Aug 6, 2005, 6:12 AM
Post #2 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 299
|
do it.
be a man.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Aug 6, 2005, 4:43 PM
Post #3 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
Well, it has a lot to do with how warm you sleep and it would be a good thing to experiment with out car camping (if you can get some place with appropriate conditions).
A light down jacket and good fleece pants could be good down to 40 degrees or so. After that, it depends on clothing and comfort level.
An alternative that I have occasionally mentioned on this site, the company that makes the mylar space blanket and space bag has a "pro-tech bag" that is the same mylar material but it is made of a multi-layer skin with small air cells that can be "puffed out," to form an insulating layer. It weighs about 12 ounces and is the size of a video cassette (so it is substantially bigger and heavier than the 3 oz space bag), but I tried it in freezing conditions with just a light weight polypro long sleeve top and bottom and I found it very warm (it has zero breathability so it was also very wet inside). I wouldn't recommend it as your primary sleeping arrangement, but if you are going "light" it could make a good backup if you get cold. I think it would also be an excellant choice to carry on summit attempts.
|
|
|
|
|
clintoris
Aug 6, 2005, 4:54 PM
Post #4 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2004
Posts: 93
|
you should read "extreme alpinism" by Mark Twight. It is the best book I've ever read on technique and talks all about this topic you are asking about right here.
|
|
|
|
|
grk10vq
Aug 6, 2005, 5:10 PM
Post #5 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2004
Posts: 527
|
I've done it plenty of times to save wieght.
I've backpacked in the fall, its been real cold at night--but not freezing I just bring my bivy, and expediton weight (whatever the hell that entails) duofold long undies-top and bottom, and a wool hat. I've never been so cold that it was uncomfortable.
On big trips in spring and summer this works real well.
|
|
|
|
|
tim
Aug 6, 2005, 5:28 PM
Post #6 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 4861
|
In reply to: An alternative that I have occasionally mentioned on this site, the company that makes the mylar space blanket and space bag has a "pro-tech bag" that is the same mylar material but it is made of a multi-layer skin with small air cells that can be "puffed out," to form an insulating layer. It weighs about 12 ounces and is the size of a video cassette (so it is substantially bigger and heavier than the 3 oz space bag), but I tried it in freezing conditions with just a light weight polypro long sleeve top and bottom and I found it very warm (it has zero breathability so it was also very wet inside). I wouldn't recommend it as your primary sleeping arrangement, but if you are going "light" it could make a good backup if you get cold. I think it would also be an excellant choice to carry on summit attempts.
Bingo. This idea was passed on to me by one Andy Kirkpatrick, who after making several winter ascents in Patagonia, damn well ought to know what he's doing (otherwise he'd be dead now). I tested this system out on a spring skiing trip and I have decided, as you did, that it's great for a backup system (I wish I'd had one of these when I ended up walking towards Guitar Lake on a descent from Russell, and ''slept'' under a rock in a windbreaker at about 35 degrees... oh how that sucked...) but since it doesn't compress back to its original size, it's kind of a one-shot (or one-trip, at least) deal. Not a big concern since the bag is about $14.
I've tried various other "space blanket" products and they all sucked. This contraption is a lot warmer than a bivy sack, due to the trapped air in the cells; if you're only taking a hat and a windbreaker on a shoulder-season Grade V, I feel like this is excellent, cheap insurance. In a pinch, I'm pretty sure a second person could crawl in there and radiate some extra heat, too.
Link to the product: MPI Pro-Tech bag
I think I bought a couple of them on eBay, which must be where I remember the $14 price tag from; it looks like retail on them is about $28. Regardless, it's better than dying if you get hailed and rained on, 20 miles from the car and halfway up a backcountry wall. And it's under a pound.
|
|
|
|
|
montaniero
Aug 6, 2005, 5:36 PM
Post #7 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 238
|
In reply to: Has anyone, summer during alpine or whatnot, gone with out a sleeping bag and only with a bivy sack and some synthetic pants and jackage? If so, whats a temp. rating for this system (if it can be estimated)
Perfectly doable, but heavily dependent on your resistance to cold. I would say synthetic jacket/pants plus a bivy sack, small bottle of virgin olive oil, Nalgene /Camelback with hot water between the legs, 2-3 minutes of jumping jacks and push ups will let you spend a night between 30º and 20º F. You are going to suffer on the wee wee hours of the morning but you said ALPINE, right?
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Aug 6, 2005, 5:54 PM
Post #8 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
One thing I forgot when I went without a sleeping bag was one pair of extra socks. It's nice to have a dry pair to sleep in.
|
|
|
|
|
guanoboy
Aug 6, 2005, 7:49 PM
Post #9 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 244
|
If i need to go light i go with a bivy sack and emergency blanket. I've probably done this a half dozen times down to about 25 degrees. As previously mentioned, its not comfortable because it gets wet in the bag. I only use this approach if i'm planning on sleeping one night out, but when you are going light, you can do most climbs in the US with only one night out.
andrew
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Aug 6, 2005, 8:46 PM
Post #10 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: Link to the product: MPI Pro-Tech bag I think I bought a couple of them on eBay, which must be where I remember the $14 price tag from; it looks like retail on them is about $28. Regardless, it's better than dying if you get hailed and rained on, 20 miles from the car and halfway up a backcountry wall. And it's under a pound.
I found it on the internet new for around $12 (I can't remember who though). I was a little suspiscious because it was so much cheaper than anybody else, but I got it for real and they charged my credit card the correct amount.
I'm still a little puzzled that this product doesn't seem to be more popular. I have never seen it in any type of outdoor/backpacking/climbing store. If it wasn't for a review in one of the climbing mags, I wouldn't have ever heard anything about it.
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Aug 6, 2005, 11:09 PM
Post #11 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
In reply to: you should read "extreme alpinism" by Mark Twight. It is the best book I've ever read on technique and talks all about this topic you are asking about right here.
When I did it was more like backpacking instead of high alpine, plenty of long dry grasses and leaves which I was able to use to insulate myself and I had a big fleece jacket. I never got rained on though, I imagine it would've sucked really bad if I had. Considering the added wait for a bivy sack with no poles I would justify taking a lightwait emergency bivy. If you are going for the whole naturalist thing then go ahead, enjoy.
If that is the case you can hunt grouse with rocks and start your own fire with a bow. I got caught poaching gross on a spike-out for the forest service by hitting them in the head with a rock and eating them, serious. It was funny, my supervisor was pissed because of the legality issue behind it.
|
|
|
|
|
chossdog
Aug 8, 2005, 12:36 AM
Post #12 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 27, 2004
Posts: 72
|
Would you consider taking a half bag (AKA an "elephant’s foot” in the UK)?Wild Things makes one insulated with 6oz primaloft and with a Epic water resistant shell that I have used on the summit of Rainier (don’t kid yourself a damn cold night even in early June under perfect conditions). The half bag compresses down to the size of a large grapefruit and is quite light. Matched with a belay jacket (which you need to take anyway for most alpine projects) the system works well and is certainly much lighter and less bulky than packing a bag.
|
|
|
|
|
skinner
Aug 8, 2005, 12:58 AM
Post #13 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2004
Posts: 1747
|
I have a Bibler Big Wall bivi which I haven't tested to (my) it's extreme yet.
But I have slept in it at -6c (+21 funkenheight) wearing just light clothes and was totally comfortable. Being wind-proof and waterproof it's a very light self-contained shelter. I am sure with an ultra light sleeping bag (instead of the ultra heavy Norseman in normally use in winter) the combination would take you well into sub-zero temps.
The downside being-->$220.00 USD :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
skinner
Aug 8, 2005, 1:03 AM
Post #14 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2004
Posts: 1747
|
You know I was just thinking.. with Tat's awesome sewing skills, he could just make a HUGE fleece lined chaulk bag that could double as a bivi !
It'd be warm :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
tattooed_climber
Aug 9, 2005, 3:35 AM
Post #15 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 4838
|
In reply to: you should read "extreme alpinism" by Mark Twight. .
Believe me its on my "to Do list"
In reply to: You know I was just thinking.. with Tat's awesome sewing skills, he could just make a HUGE fleece lined chaulk bag that could double as a bivi ! It'd be warm :wink:
as a matter of fact, i've made 7 fleece bag liners for various hippies/gypsies/tree planters (in fact all three are the same!) i know, they all loved em
ANY WAYS! i did it this weekend, no sleeping bag....though it wasn't 'extreme'....since my hand is still a bit broken and useless, i did a solo ascent of golden ears, i didn't take the marked route of class 2-3 (pussy route) instead i did actual scrambling, 4th class, free-soloing 5th and the equivalent of WI-1 up two of the glaciers (i literally choose to take a straight line up the mountain and not taking the ridge) had a blast...no summit bidding like all the fathers and sons i see go up there...had my pack to the back where it belongs the whole way up, still nothing of a climb.
any how, back to the topic, i ended up bivying beside this beautiful glacier/lake, so i say it got to about zero C (the dew on my bivi sack was a bit frosty)..with wind chill (and it was windy, and coming off the lake) I'd say LOWEST it got was maybe -5C.....i slept in my Bivi (Intergal designs expd. unishelter) with the zipped half down up , MEC softshell pants (fretta), MEC synthetic pull over (northern lite) and my arc'teryx softshell jacket (gamma MX) and no base layers.....and i sweated bit as well....i was pretty impressed...but the softshell pants were the weak point (they're great if your moving though, not when you're still i find)...so i need to make a 150 buck investment in some synthetic pants
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=59033
my proof-of-life shot after the 5th class solo
|
|
|
|
|
montaniero
Aug 9, 2005, 3:21 PM
Post #16 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 238
|
In reply to: ...but the softshell pants were the weak point (they're great if your moving though, not when you're still i find)...so i need to make a 150 buck investment in some synthetic pants
Nah, you don't. Just drink some olive oil and put a nalgene filled with hot water between your legs and they will feel like a sauna.
|
|
|
|
|
kellie
Aug 10, 2005, 4:38 PM
Post #17 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2003
Posts: 125
|
I've done light alpine trips with a bivy sack, half a foam pad, and slept in my clothes and down jacket. Cold and uncomfortable, but it's alpine. Suffering is what you signed up for.
On a more luxurious note, I've also taken the down jacket (which I would take regardless), and down pants instead of a sleeping bag (the pants are lighter and pack *much* smaller than a bag). Way more cosy than just the bivy sack and my climbing pants.
I've also foregone the bivy and just stuck my feet in my pack. I have a pack with a storm sleeve that I can pull up to my waist and a 1/3 size foam pad in the back that I can pull out and use for a bivy. Works great as long as it's not raining.
Experiment on trips where you're not hanging it all out there; you may be surprised by how much discomfort you can endure and still be just fine.
Haven't tried the drinking straight olive oil trick though.
kellie
|
|
|
|
|
strongerthanyesterday
Aug 12, 2005, 7:11 AM
Post #18 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 213
|
so how much olive oil are we talkin' about? like a couple spoonfuls or like .25 liter?
|
|
|
|
|
mtnfr34k
Aug 12, 2005, 7:50 AM
Post #19 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 184
|
Chouinard has a story from his Pan-American VW Van expedition of climbing (anybody remember where - I think it was a mountaineering climb before reaching Patagonia) and being damn cold when the team gets up for the summit bid. He throws back a shot glass of olive oil, and not thiry minutes later warms up. He credited the olive oil.
Mark Twight noted a similar effect with fatty foods in his "Extreme Alpinism" book. He theorised that eating (or drinking) something fatty "fooled" the body into burning more stored fats than typical (in anticipation to the fats being replaced), which had a nice side effect of increasing the metabolic heat generated.
Wow, lots of big words there - hope I used them all right! :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
qwert
Aug 12, 2005, 1:36 PM
Post #20 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 2394
|
If i read the olive oil thing correctly, it seems to me as if it where only usefull for short trips. If the body is burning more fat than appropiate over a long period of serious activity, wouldnt you then loose important reserves for a "real" bad situation?
But i have to try that on a short trip, but i guess you have to really like olive oil for that (i do, but i cant drink it like water).
Apart from olive oil:
wear everything you can, if youre cold. I might look funky but you can wear a pullover on your legs, if they are colder than your torso, just dont jump up in the middle of the night and run to go pissing, it might be bad for your teeth :lol:
qwert
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Aug 12, 2005, 9:59 PM
Post #21 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
I drink olive oil on my alpine trips. At 120 calories a tablespoon, it is about as many calories per weight as you are going to find. Over the course of a day, I might drink 10 tablespoons to add around 1000 calories to my diet. I have heard people complain/warn about eating too much fat at altitude. I've never had a problem but when they say altitude maybe they mean higher than the Sierras.
|
|
|
|
|
montaniero
Aug 12, 2005, 10:55 PM
Post #22 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 238
|
In reply to: so how much olive oil are we talkin' about? like a couple spoonfuls or like .25 liter?
I wouldn't recommend .25 liter of olive oil straight up...unless you hate your bowels.
In reply to: But i have to try that on a short trip, but i guess you have to really like olive oil for that (i do, but i cant drink it like water).
Don't have to worry about liking it either. When you are freezing cold up high in the middle of nowhere you could drink camel's pee if it's going to get you warm. Nevertheless, being half Spanish and half Italian also helps. Although if you are Irish or Scottish, single malt will work alright. :)
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Aug 12, 2005, 11:12 PM
Post #23 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
In reply to: An alternative that I have occasionally mentioned on this site, the company that makes the mylar space blanket and space bag has a "pro-tech bag" that is the same mylar material but it is made of a multi-layer skin with small air cells that can be "puffed out," to form an insulating layer. It weighs about 12 ounces and is the size of a video cassette (so it is substantially bigger and heavier than the 3 oz space bag), but I tried it in freezing conditions with just a light weight polypro long sleeve top and bottom and I found it very warm (it has zero breathability so it was also very wet inside). I wouldn't recommend it as your primary sleeping arrangement, but if you are going "light" it could make a good backup if you get cold. I think it would also be an excellant choice to carry on summit attempts.
Here's the rub: my ultralight down bag that I've slept comfortably in down to 25 degrees weight a mere 16 ounces. It's rated to 32, but I sleep warm. And compressed, it's about the size of a 1.5 liter nalgene. And it weighs a whole 4 ounces more than this contraption you use. Plus, I suspect I'll have the down bag for a handful of years, not just a one time use.
Although I've slept (or pretended to sleep, anyway) many, many times in the mountains without a bag, usually the associated grogginess the next day is not worth the risk associated with being tired and stupid. Is saving a pound in your pack worth that 500 ft fall?
I usually reserve the "no bag" or space blanket thing for lower elevation activities such as guiding a bevy of 20 something female kayak ecotourists, when the combined body warmth is worth much more than the sum of the parts.....
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Aug 13, 2005, 6:17 PM
Post #24 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: Here's the rub: my ultralight down bag that I've slept comfortably in down to 25 degrees weight a mere 16 ounces. It's rated to 32, but I sleep warm. And compressed, it's about the size of a 1.5 liter nalgene. And it weighs a whole 4 ounces more than this contraption you use. Plus, I suspect I'll have the down bag for a handful of years, not just a one time use.
Well, I'm not trying to say the mylar bag is the best choice all the time. However, here are some things to consider. Maybe your down bag really is 16 ounces, but my experience that most "1 pound" bags are more like 18 or 20 (whatever, this one doesn't really matter that much).
Here's a bigger rub: you take your down bag with you for a summit attempt, get benighted, and get hit by a midnight rain storm. Is your down bag still going to keep you warm to 32? Oh, you're taking a bivy/tarp to stay dry? Then you have a 2~3 pound setup instead of 12 ounces. Your bag has epic fabric and will stay dry in the rain? Maybe a light drizzle or a cold snow. But a hard rain? I doubt it (but feel free to try it and get back to me).
Finally, it cost $12~$30 (I found it for 12, it retails for around 30). Your down bag with epic fabric is what, maybe $200+.
The mylar bag is reusable. Although it will never compress that small again unless you have a vacuum sealer.
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Aug 15, 2005, 5:33 PM
Post #25 of 30
(5477 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
Well, Sspssp, you seem like a good guy, and I would agree with you in that most "ultralight" down bags weigh in a bit more than the manufacturer wants you to think it is. The simple solution: put the thing on the scale before you buy. I'm sure you've been around awhile, and you know that most outdoor retail places have a mail weighing scale. So I weighed it, and yes, mine's a pound.
As for the second point; my solution to the rain issue is twofold:
1) don't go lightweight when storm systems are threatening to come in, unless you're pretty sure you can car to car the thing (something simple like Keeler east face) in a day. Anyway, getting trapped in a rain storm after summiting is a serious judgement error....
2) They make these little gizmos called "space blankets". They weigh in around an ounce and a half. I love em. But although I carry one for emergencies, I rarely ever use em because of my thoughts about point (1) above. This brings the total weight with sleeping bag of the rig to a little over a pound. If I go bagless, my rig weighs in around an ounce and a half.
Good luck, and happy summits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
